Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (MGFA) - Military Historical Office for Research

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Olof Anjou
Access to German archives of killed Luftwaffe pilots
Sat Dec 15 17:20:52 2001

Hello,
I would like to know if and how one could get information from German archives abt. Luftwaffe losses. (In my case, 1945 and with incomplete name of pilot but probable day and unit)

Many thanks in advance!

Olof

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Peter Teunissen
peterteun@hotmail.com
sources
Thu Dec 20 20:56:41 2001


Try the following:

Gemeinschaft der Jagdflieger
Suchdienstzentrale-Historisches Archiv
Krahwinkeler Strasse 34A
53797 LOHMAR

Luftwaffenmuseum der Bundeswehr
Kladower Damm 182-188
D-14089 BERLIN

Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt
Zeppelinstrasse 127/128
D-14471 POTSDAM

Wehrmacht Auskunftstelle
Eichborndamm 179
D-13403 BERLIN

Bundesarchiv
Abteigarten 6
52076 AACHEN


That should do it.

Best regards,

Peter

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

chavelier
Fw190 exact production number
Thu Apr 4 23:41:06 2002
195.11.50.108

for a long time I'm so confused about this figure. unlike the USAF, the production figure of Luftwaffe is much blured.
generally everyone agree only 80 Fw190A-7s were built. but yesterday I came across a book on 190 F,G published by Japo of Czech, which claims "only 760 A-7s were built"?
I've got some german statiscs in the early 60s. one said 20001 Fw190s were produced and 18010 accepted by the LW. another said from 1942 to 1945 only 7647 were produced, maybe this only refers to jabo types. some mentioned that from 1942 to 1945 only 13544 BMW801s were provided. can it be true?
I hope someone could offer some convicing figures on 190 production.

many thanx.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Fw 190 Production Figures
Fri Apr 5 12:43:13 2002
205.188.199.163

Concerning production figures for the Fw 190, as you cite only one low-quality and unreliable reference, your problem seems evident: you don't understand what lies behind varying production figures, and you haven't consulted the single best source on the question.

As I have written many times, Dr. Horst Boog, the former chief of the Militaergeschichtliches Forschungs Amt, Freiburg, is supposed to have estimated that only three percent of Luftwaffe documents survived the war. THREE PERCENT! The usefulness of that vestige was further diminished by its fragmentation and by its distribution over such exciting activities as pay, routine legal proceedings, specifications for socks, land acquisition, and a hundred other non-operational functions.

By ruthlessly torturing sources such as loss and casualty records which were never intended to reveal production, moderately (or occasionally completely) accurate figures for some manufacturers and types may be had. I seriously doubt that more than an approach, however, for the Fw 190 can ever be achieved. The problem of remanufacture, repair, and updating further confounds would-be investigators.

In the meanwhile, go look at what the best scholar has done:
Peter Rodeike, Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug (Eutin: Struve Druck, 1998). The documentary and intellectural difficulties in researching German aircraft production as a whole are superbly set out in William Murray, Luftwaffe: Strategy for Defeat.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

With Jaap Woortman's guidance, I have been led to the MGFA's website:

http://www.mgfa-potsdam.de/

By locating this site through Google, I am able to use Google's translator to more readily understand what is on the site. Here, in rough translation, is the site's introduction to the MGFA:

"Good ladies and gentlemen,

with the military-historical office for research (MGFA) you a mechanism of the German Federal Armed Forces singular after setting of tasks and self understanding would like to introduce itself. Modern military history is today a partial discipline of the science of history, in which armed power as well as the constant interrelation between army, state and society are examined. These planes of section between "society are civilian" and "more military" extraordinarily multilayered and reach from political, economic and technical aspects, over questions of the everyday life and social history, up to culture-historical connections. Central task of our house is the military-historical basic research, whereby at present the emphasis within the range of the German military history 20. Century lies. Apart from the promotion of the scientific realization progress the results serve the research in addition, substantially the historical education in armed forces. The MGFA contributes the self understanding and the historical conciousness to armed forces.

Finally the office is all to those, which look for advice and assistance regarding military history, with its expert's assessment at the disposal. Our technical library is open to everyone.

Dr. Joerg Duppler
Navy Captain and Bureau Chief

Of particular interest, however, is the listing of a very large number of books on German military history. This list can be found by first clicking on Publikationen. Again, utilizing Google's translator, this page reads as follows:

"The editorship

The scientific work on the military-historical office for research reflects itself in a large number of publications. In over forty years of its existence the MGFA published several hundred publications, which itself to the science, to which, beyond that in addition, to an military-historically interested public address German Federal Armed Forces. The whole the published of the books and magazines arrange an impression of that for method variety and interdisciplinary anchorage of critical military historiography. In order to reach public, research and libraries equally, the military-historical office for research created a number of different publication forms together with selected publishing houses. The appearing annual "total listing of the publications" gives an overview of the high number at co-operation with partner publishing houses.

Here first the large book series are to be called, under which the series appearing with the German publishing house (Stuttgart) takes "the German Reich and the Second World War" a lifted out position. In order to make important standard works better usable also within the international range, the office strives for fremdsprachige expenditures. Such a project is the English translation of the series under the title "Germany and the Second World was" with the publishing house house Oxford University presses, which published already six volumes. Those offers a cross section by the research internationally well-known number of "contributions to the military history", which appears with the Oldenbourg science publishing house (Munich). Likewise the "military-historical studies" and "single writings are to be called to military history", to which above all theses are taken up.

Numerous volumes with the results of the international conference meetings of the office find a place in the number of "lectures to the military history", which appears with the publishing house E.S. intermediary (Hamburg). The "fundamentals of German military history" attained a lifted out meaning for the historical education of soldiers of the German Federal Armed Forces, which offer in a work and to a source book a first introduction to the topic. The editorship of the military-historical office for research cared for by text registration, lektorat, sentence and character position the manuscripts which can be published organizational and technically and takes over the hinge function to the partner publishing houses of the in and foreign country."

To review the list, click on Gesamtverzeichnis. Here are listed military history books from the following publishers:

Verlag C.H. Beck
Berg Publishers
Berghahn Books
Bernard & Graefe Verlag
Biblio Verlag
Böhlau
Harald Boldt-Verlag im R. Oldenbourg Verlag
Brandenburgisches Verlagshaus / Verlagsgruppe Dornier
Campus Verlag
Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt
Donat Verlag
Droste Verlag
Duncker & Humblot
Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag
v. Hase & Koehler Verlag
INFO Verlag GmbH
Juventa Verlag
Kohlhammer Verlag
Peter Lang Verlag
Ch. Links Verlag
Gebr. Mann Verlag
Selbstverlag des MGFA
Verlag E.S. Mittler & Sohn
Verlag Heinz Nickel
R. Oldenbourg Verlag
Oxford University Press
Manfred Pawlak
Piper Verlag
Propyläen Verlag
Reed Elsevier Medical Verlag
Reichert Verlag
Report
Rombach Verlag
Seehamer Verlag
Franz Steiner Verlag
Stock & Stein
Trafo Verlag
Verlag Dieter Winkler

Ordering information is also found on the site.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Ed West
Serious research: Germany WWII
Sun Nov 2 22:18:34 2003
64.7.186.83

I've run across a book series that is described as the definitive account of German military activity during World War II. Let me start off by saying this is the dry academic stuff, but is written by scholars associated with the German Military History Institute. Each volume costs over $100 US., but I'm not suggesting anyone buy them. Definitely not! There is interlibrary loan, buying used copies, and the original German editions are less expensive, but having it in English is the point.

Out of ten volumes, the following have been released:

Germany and the Second World War- Volume 1: The Build-up of German Aggression
Volume 2: Germany's initial conquests in Europe
Volume 3: The Mediterranean, South-East Europe and North Africa 1939-41
Volume 4: The Attack on the Soviet Union
Volume 5, Part 1: Organization and Mobilization in the German Sphere of Power: Wartime Administration, Economy and Manpower Resources 1939-41
Volume V/II: Organization and Mobilization in the German Sphere of Power: Wartime Administration, Economy and Manpower Resources 1942-1944/5
Volume 6: The Global War
Volume 7: Germany on the Defensive

The Luftwaffe is among the many subjects covered. I have found a review of Vol. V/II on the "stone & stone books" web site.
As you read through it, mention of aircraft production in July 1944 appears (for example) with reference to a chart or graph. There is also mention of what the Allies thought about German use of radiation weapons, even in conventional bombs. For the rest, go here:

http://stonebooks.com/archives/030810.shtml

The publisher of the English language editions is the Oxford University Press in the UK. (There is a link to the Oxford University Press at the end of the review.)It is estimated that the final English language volumes, due to translation time, will come out across the next two years. I also wish to make the following suggestion: Someone should get a hold of the edition in the review I mentioned to see if it has the amount of detail in regards to the Luftwaffe that may warrent examining, if not actually getting, it and the rest, preferablyvia interlibrary loan. Also, the OUP web site does give, in some cases, more detailed information about what is in the books (strangely detailed in one spot and spotty the next).

Best regards,
Ed

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Steve W.
Author Jan Horn and his KG 6 book "Wir flogen gen westen"
Thu Jun 10, 2004 19:48
64.12.116.81

I had never run across his name before, Richard, and I'm always on the lookout for new books that provide fresh research on the Luftwaffe. I can only comment on his new KG 6 work, of course, so it may be an exception. But on a scale of 1 to 10, his research effort was maybe a 5 or 6, and that's being very kind to him.

The book is set up much like Ulf Balke's KG 2 history, but without the depth of research. His bibliography page is a shocker because he cites no record groups or files for any of the 5 archives listed (BA-MA Freiburg, BA-ZNS Aachen, WASt Berlin, DRK München and MGFA Potsdam), and he cites 29 internet websites as bibliographic sources compared to just 16 published works! Good Golly, Miss Molly! Even his most ardent supporters and apologists would have to admit that this is NOT a serious, scholarly work. He completely ignored the 20 to 30 detailed ADI(K) P/W interrogation reports of KG 6 aircrew that are available at the PRO in London and never bothered to cite Walter Storp's manuscript, "Kampfgeschwader 6 ", Goslar, 22 Nov 1972, 12 pages. I've seen better sourcing for 96-page Osprey titles.

It appears that Herr Horn is trying to emulate Franz Kurowski: superficial research, low investment in time and high output in product, given the list of his forthcoming titles. But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong. I guess we are lucky to have at least something on KG 6, although the majority who visit this Board are not interested in bomber units and most of them do not read German. Perhaps Herr Horn is young and just getting into the book-writing business. If so, then he should try to work on the quality of his research, and in doing so he will increase his sales.

Just my two cents,

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
Re. Jan Horn and KG 6
Thu Jun 10, 2004 21:11
69.72.4.240

Dear Steve W.,

First off, I am not an apologist for Jan Horn. In corresponding with others over the years I was left with the impression that Jan has a significant Me 262 document collection and was thus surprised by the seeming lack of its information appearing in his book. I have been told that he can be a bit close with his material and has rubbed some people the wrong way. Still, if he has the resources I have been led to believe that he has, I looked forward to his sharing of his knowledge through publication. Perhaps this dichotomy in thinking, to share and yet not to share, impacted what he listed as his sources in his book. Some researchers are very protective of their sources.

As for his not visiting the PRO, well, I've never visited the BA/MA. He appears to have relied on the archives in Germany and his communications with fellow researchers, much as I have concentrated my research in the U.S. and by sharing with other researchers. Add to that the simple fact that the wealth of information contained in our respective nation's archives is so vast that they can't be covered in a single lifetime, there may, indeed, be a propensity to explore what is easiest to access based on geographic considerations, hoping that correspondence across national boundaries will help fill in some of the gaps.

That isn't to say that exploring other nation's archives would be a waste of time. Far from it. As a prelude to a vacation in 2002, I spent 3 days at the PRO and IWM and, through the good offices of Richard P. Bateson, accomplished easily twice as much as I would have had I been on my own. Somewhere along the line I also plan to research at the BA. It is just that the flowers are growing so richly on this side of the pond that I wish to pick them as they bloom.

I surely hope that Jan is not trying to emulate Franz Kurowski, as that would really be a bad idea. Surely you exaggerate.

You mention Storp's Manuscript, but don't give me a clue as to where I might obtain a copy. Maestro?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Storp Manuscript
Thu Jun 10, 2004 23:58
205.188.113.58

The original is on file with MGFA, which is now located in Potsdam. Many years ago MGFA was located in Freiburg and its Referent Luftwaffe was the esteemed Dr. Horst Boog. At that time MGFA had very little historical material on KG 6 and Dr. Boog asked its retired Kommodore, Gen.Maj. Walter Storp, to prepare a short history of the Geschwader based on his experiences and recollections. Like most papers of this sort that are based mainly on memory, it contains some interesting and worthwhile material not found elsewhere but at the same time it lacks the day-to-day operational details that most of us like. Jan Horn undoubtedly used it, especially for its account of the last several months of the war in the Prague area, which is probably not available elsewhere, at least not that I've seen. Unfortunately, the manuscript would be of little use to you as Storp simply mentions the Me 262 in passing: we received a few, we trained on 'em and we flew a couple of missions with them. All I'm saying is that if he did use it, then Horn should have cited it in his sourcing. Period.

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
Re. Storp Manuscript
Fri Jun 11, 2004 02:08
69.72.3.216

Dear Steve,

Thank you for that clarification.

I can't say what Jan Horn did or did not use as sources in his book. Not all authors mention all of their sources.

Regards,
Richard