Wehrmachtsauskunftstelle fur Kriegeverluste und Kriegsgefangene (WASt) - 5

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Roman
Kom. KG1
Sat Aug 24 10:47:54 2002
212.14.163.103

Wo ist der Geschwaderkommodore KG1 P. Stemmel am 14 August 1942 gefallen (vermisst)?

Altavista and dictionary translation:

Where is the Geschwaderkommodore KG1 P. Stemmel on 14 August 1942 killed in action (missing)?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
Geschw.Stab/KG 1
Sat Aug 24 13:20:47 2002
205.188.208.136

Gen.Maj. Karl Angerstein (DKG, RK) (1 Aug 40 - 18 Jul 42)
Obstlt. Paul Schemmell (18 Jul 42 - 14 Aug 42) MIA
Maj. Hans Keppler (DKG) (20 Aug 42 - 3 Sep 42) KIA

Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

roman
KG1
Sun Aug 25 08:57:24 2002
212.14.163.108

Mein liebe Freund! Leider habe ich kein Englisch und schreib nur Deutsch! Ich frage über Ort des Vemissung Paul Schemmel. In BA-MA Dokumenten erwähnt nur Quadrat!
Besten Dank fur Ihre Hilfe!
Roman

Altavista translation:

My dear friend! Unfortunately I do not have English and write only German! I ask about place of the missing Paul Schemmel. In BA-MA documents only square mentions!
Best thanks fur your assistance!
Roman

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
Paul Schemmel
Sun Aug 25 15:27:01 2002
64.12.97.6

Roman -

Der genaue Ort ist bei mir unbekannt, aber:
14 Aug 42: Ju 88A-4 (V4+AA) with Kdore Obstlt. Schemmell and crew shot down by a fighter near (bei) Rzhev (Rshew)/216 km NNO Smolensk, UdSSR (Russia), and all reported killed in action.
Schreiben Sie WASt in Berlin für nähere informations über der Ort.

MfG

Larry

Altavista translation:

Roman -

The exact place is unknown with me, but: 14 August 42: Ju 88A-4 (V4+AA) with Kdore Obstlt. Schemmell and crew shot down by a fighter near (bei) Rzhev (Rshew)/216 km NNE Smolensk, USSR (Russia), and all reported killed in action. Write WASt in Berlin for closer information over the place.

MfG

Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Paul Schemmel
Sun Aug 25 21:02:15 2002
209.237.196.122

Ju 88A-4 4100 Schemmel, Oberstltn. Peter Stab KG 1 blau A V4+AA 14-Aug-42 Kommodore. MIA with crew due to enemy fighters. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10 (Pl.Qu. 47591) 100% F

On 19th:

Ju 88A-4 144170 LORCH, Major Herbert Stab II. KG 1 grün C V4+CC 19-Aug-42 Kommandeur. MIA due to enemy fighters. 2 others MIA, B returned WIA. RK. WNr reported as 4170. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10 near Kolodesy 100% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
Schemmel (Sources)
Sun Aug 25 21:42:24 2002
64.12.97.6

Roman -

There appear to be some different sources with different details concerning the loss of Obstlt. Schemmel. My information came from the following:

Spohr (Hptm.) - “Kriegschronik des Kampfgeschwader 1 ‘Hindenburg’”, a 78-page manuscript c.late 1944/early 1945. Hptm. Spohr belonged to Geschw.Stab/KG 1 throughout the war and used all Geschwader KTBs and Anlagen in the preparation of his official Geschwader history. The manuscript can be found in: BA-MA/Freiburg - Signatur RL 10/529; NARA/WashDC - T-971 roll 50/frames 965-1056; and AFHRA/Maxwell AFB (Alabama, USA) - Karlsruhe Collection decimal K113.408-3.

This source takes precedence over the Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.)/Ob.d.L. Verlustmeldungen entries in terms of accuracy. Hptm. Spohr was right there when it happened.

Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Roman
KG1
Wed Aug 28 15:17:59 2002
212.14.163.104

Viele Dank, Larry!
Kleine Frage: wie mochte ich mit WASt schreiben?
Roman

Altavista translation:

Many thanks, Larry!
Small question: how could I have written with WASt?
Roman

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
WASt Berlin
Wed Aug 28 16:55:05 2002
205.188.209.70

Roman -

Here is the e-mail address for WASt. Information on how to contact them is on the website.

Dt. Dienststelle/WASt
Fri Jul 19 19:38:51 2002
217.84.6.2

The address is:
www.genealogienetz.de/reg/DEU/wast.html (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/DEU/wast.html)
Please note that for every copied page of document a fee of ca. 8,-- € is charged. Sehr teuer!

Viel Glück!

Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

David P. Williams
Hauptmann Kurt Loos
Sun Sep 29 17:55:04 2002
195.92.194.16

I am presently assisting someone who is seeking information of Hauptmann Kurt Loos of NJG1 and NJG5. Any biographical information would be greatly appreciated.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Wim Govaerts
wim.govaerts@skynet.be
Hauptmann Kurt Loos
Wed Oct 23 14:47:36 2002
217.136.63.93

Kurt Heinrich Max Loos was born on 2 January 1920 at Schwerte. He died on 24 March 1945 being a member of the 8.Staffel of the II.Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 300. He died during a battle in the air in the vicinity of Göttingen. He is currently buried at the Ehrenfriefhof in Göttingen, section 74a, grave 9.

Source: Deutsche Dienststelle via Luc Cox/Belgium

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dick Powers
Third He 219 Crew Member
Tue Oct 29 19:47:40 2002
63.150.97.2

I have an original “Abschussmedlung” of Johannes Hager, for a sortie on June 17, 1944 while flying an He 219 A-0. The report lists a crew of three. Hager, Fw. von Bergen and Fw. Korschgen. I had thought the third crew member was not actually aircrew, but may have been an independent witness.

A couple of weeks ago I visited the NASM Garber faclility, where the He 219 is being restored. I asked the restorer about a third crew member. He told me that there was a third seat, located in the aft fuselage behind the fuel tanks where some electronic equipment is located. He also showed me the “seat” which had been removed. It is little more than a piece of curved plywood with lap and shoulder harness. He thought the third position was used only for test flights to tune the electronics and wasn’t manned on operations.

Does anyone here know of the 219 “third” crew member?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
He 219 3rd crew member
Tue Oct 29 20:54:38 2002
216.191.233.206

One of the He 219 sub-types was planned to have an extended cockpit enclosure with a gunner at the back of it to combat the growing intruder presence over the Reich. Perhaps this was an aircraft testing that layout.

As I recall, the position in the rear position has hookups for neither oxygen nor intercom. So, it not appear to be usable in operational flights.

George

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Re: He 219 3rd crew member
Tue Oct 29 21:28:48 2002
63.150.97.2

I believe that in June, 1944, it must have been a run-of-the mill early production type. At the time Hager was a Ltnt with 6. /NJG 1.The combat report clearly states that it was an A-0 variant.

And you are correct, the rear position has no provisions other than a seat. I suppose an oxygen mask and tank could have been used, but having no outside vision and little ability to escape if something happened must have been terrifying, even for a test flight.

I believe that it was the conventional 219 and the third crew member was carried on the mission.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Olivier Lefebvre
G9+AK
Wed Oct 30 13:25:48 2002
195.132.11.199

AFAIK G9+AK (IIRC) of 3./NJG1 also an A-0 carried 3 crewmembers when it crash on 01/06/44. I don't think they were testbeds for the A-5 3-seater version, as they seemed to be operational aircraft.
As to the use of the third man, i don't know.

Olivier

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Junker
He 219 G9+AK.
Wed Oct 30 16:08:56 2002
131.164.184.117

This aircraft belonged to Umschulungskdo. NJG 1 in Grove/DK. They also carried out nightfighting on some occations. The G9+AK transferred to Aalborg, from Grove. It should try to catch the Mosquito's that was flying between England and Sweden. It carried along the 1. Wart, as there was no one in Aalborg qualified to carry out repairs on He 219. On the returnflight to Grove they should carry out some shootingpracties near Aalborg, chrashing to unknown reasons.
Junker

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
3-seater-losses on He 219
Thu Oct 31 13:00:02 2002
212.34.74.75

Hello Dick,

AFAIK there are four WASt-reports on He 219s with a third
person on board, all from NJG 1 and all from summer 1944:

09. Sep. 44
Ofw. Jadetz Heinz, kia, Flpl. Hopsten
2.I/.NJG 1, 219 A0, 210905, G9+DK,
Luftkampf with figher a/c at 1755 hrs, 100% lost
Uffz. Schindler Alfred kia; Uffz. Wennholz Heinrich kia
01. Jun. 44
Oblt. Guth Fritz, kia, East of Muldbjerg/Lynfjord
3. I/.NJG 1, 219 , 190119, G9+AK,
crashed, 100% lost
Fw. Klein Andreas kia; Ogfr Otto Herbert, kia


22. Jun. 44
Oblt. Hager, unharmed, Scheldemündung
6. II./NJG 1, 219 A0, 210903, G9+LP
damaged due to enemy fire,
Fw.Hubert von Berger, wia; Fw Körschgen wia
19. Aug. 44
Uffz Auer Robert, kia, near Twente
Schulstaffel NJG 1, 219, 190108 G9+??
Crashed, 100 % lost
Uffz Frey Georg, kia; Ogfr Kistt Paul kia.

I have no information on the "job" of the third man.
But I'd like to think he was a member of the ground crew or an instructor, as probably none of the losses occured during a night combat mission.

HTH

Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Third Man
Thu Oct 31 15:43:28 2002
63.150.97.2

Thanks, for your information. I looked in Roland Remp's 219 book and noticed int he table of known 219 losses in 1944, that there are several lists that have three names and one having four names.

My Abschussmelddung, and the supporting documents all list Hager, von Bergen and Korschgen as crew members. On this sortie, they claimed two victories which were confirmed.

I believe that the third crew member was included in combat missions on occasion.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Day or night?
Thu Oct 31 21:57:46 2002
212.159.17.152

That first one in your list looks like it was in daylight (17.55 on 19 September) so probably not an operational flight, I'd guess. I wonder what times the other incidents took place?

IIRC, Gebhard Aders in his book "History of the German Night Fighter Force" talked about 3-seat He 219s (with a rear MG for defence?) but what were his sources? Also, unlike the Me 110, the 219's cockpit doesn't look like it offered any space to put a third crewman unless you made a serious adaptation to the aircraft.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
More
Thu Oct 31 23:09:45 2002
63.150.97.2

Nick,
My Abschusemelding gives the time as 0140 - so it was a night engagement. Having seen the cockpit of NASM's 219, the third member must have been in the rear fuselage.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Additional Infos
Fri Nov 1 17:42:59 2002
62.245.161.204

Nick,

I had a look on the original Wast reports. It seems,
that only one losses was during actual night-combat
with the third man acting as gunner(so there had to
be a rearward-firing gun). In all other cases the
additional crew was ground-personal:

09. Sep. 44
Loss during transit-fight from Handorf to Hopsten
Uffz. Wennholz Heinrich was a 1.Wart

I have found another loss occuring during the same action:
He219A-0,130128,G9+OK,lost to fighters when landing at Hopsten at 17.59hrs.
Fw. Wildhagen,Uffz. Kramer, Ogfr. Ociepka and Gefr. Neumeier wia. Ociepka was a 1.Wart and Neumeier a Waffenwart.

22. Jun. 44
Oblt. Hager was the pilot, Fw.Hubert von Bergen a Bordfunker and Fw Körschgen a gunner. According to the WASt the loss was due to enemy fire on a combat-flight for “Nahnachtjagd”

19. Aug. 44
Ogfr Kist Paul was a 1.Wart.


Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steffen
3rd crew member
Thu Oct 31 23:58:07 2002
212.144.40.14

Hello,

during my research that I currently do on the He 219 I also came by the "He 219 A-0 Bedienungsvorschrift-Fl" which is the manual dated March 12, 1944.

On page 26 it says:
"Example of loading in a special case: Weapons are not installed, a 3rd man on an extra seat in the fuselage."

This is the direct translation - WWII German was very brief...
But: It shows that there were provisions for a 3rd crew member in the fuselage (which means somewhere behind the fuel tanks and therefore totally dark).

Later on there have been some versions of the aircraft with a third crew member sitting in the crew compartment to the front (which was extended for this purpose). The first such version seems to have been the A-5/R4 which also featured an MG 131 as a rear-facing weapon. This version was later on simply called A-5 (with the "Rüstsatz" R1 to R3).

Best regards, Steffen.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steffen
Re: 3rd crew member
Fri Nov 1 00:19:22 2002
212.144.79.36

In reading on I saw something most astonishing:

They do a calculation of the center of gravity in the following. The 3rd guy is supposed to have the same weight as the other two crew members (100 kg) and sits at an X-position of 11.16 m from the nose of the aircraft (pilot at X=1.90 m, observer at X=2.70 m).

Therefore my quote was the header for this example calculation.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
He 219 with three seats?
Sat Nov 2 23:28:11 2002
212.159.22.104

In the earlier thread I mentioned something in Gehard Aders “History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917–1945” (Jane’s, London, 1979). I've now found the passage in question (sadly there's no source quoted):

"In June [1944] a few He 219 As were also flown operationally by II./NJG 1, but the pilots — all old Bf 110 hands — were not at ease with the Uhu. They found that its performance was not significantly better than that of their usual mounts, felt most uncomfortable sitting ahead of the engines, and most of all bemoaned the fact that the He 219 had only a two-man crew. At their request the front-line workshops replaced the rear entry hatch (intended for access to the oblique guns) with a Plexiglass panel through which a third crew member could observe the airspace beneath the fighter. Some pilots are even supposed to have had a machine gun on a simple lens-type mount fitted in this position for defence against Mosquito attacks. The request for a three-man crew was met by Heinkel with Rüstsatz 4 applicable to the He 219 A-5. This consisted of an additional cockpit with a defensive weapon, fitted on top of the main cabin. The pattern aircraft, He 219V30, was also test-flown by NJGr. 10 and criticised because of a 25 km/h (15.5 mph) loss in speed. The 150 hp of extra power available on the He 219 A-5 series cancelled this out, but that was all."