Map sources

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

John Beaman
Atlas?
Mon Aug 19 20:39:11 2002
216.136.45.130

Is there a source for pre-war (I assume wartime would be banned) general atlas maps for Germany? Or, immediate posy-war? The current maps for Germany often do not show the smaller areas or villages mentioned in various WWII reports. Also, some may have changed names (not just in the former DDR). Scale is not an issue: the larger the better.

Thanks

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Pre-War and Wartime Maps of Germany, etc.
Mon Aug 19 21:05:13 2002
198.26.120.13

John,

You can probably find what you want in the collections of the Cartographic Division of the Library of Congress. Pre-war and wartime maps of Germany (or most other places) in private hands are going to be very difficult to locate. And the LC will make copies for you—at a price, of course!

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Manrho
Eastern area's
Mon Aug 19 22:16:07 2002
213.75.76.195

Very good and detailed maps (including list of locations) of the former German area's in the East (Posen, Pommern, Preussen, Schlesien) can be obtained at Höfer Verlag in Dietzenbach. Not expensive and very good. Details on their internet-site

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Pawel Przymusiala
Old maps of Germany
Mon Aug 19 22:55:06 2002
212.244.167.100

Hi,
As for maps of Germany, one shouldn't ignore the fact, that some names were changed after A.H. got the power in 1933, as they "sound slavonic". For this reason some villages can have two totally different names. As for maps, I use old car-maps, and sometimes the topographic maps. However, it shall be mentioned here, that area of my current interest are aerodromes rather than places of combat. So my personal research is easier a little.
After successful conquest, the Germans changed names of several cities - it shall be also considered! I.e.: Leibach=Lubljana, Inowroclaw=Hohensalza, etc. Honestly, having such a map shall be paid in solid gold! I have just a pieces...
Good luck,
Pawel

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Simon Kularatne
German Atlas
Tue Aug 20 00:11:38 2002
195.93.34.161

John,

Have a look at the maps dated 1937 at

http://home.tiscali.be/p.colmant/index.htm


Simon

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Martin aus Melbourne.
martin303@iprimus.com.au
My example
Tue Aug 20 01:24:34 2002
210.50.37.82

Hi there,
one that I've had for years is "Atlas of Central Europe" by John Murray publ 1963. It really is excellent, the maps are of German origin, borders are from 1937. Entries are indexed as German 1st, but post war Engish/Soviet/DDR are also there.
The detail is great, all the small Dorfs that not many have heard of since '45 are there.
Would certainly recomend trying to find a 2nd hand example.

Marty

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Thanks to everyone--good pointers (n/t)
Tue Aug 20 12:01:44 2002
216.136.45.130

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
Digital Maps
Tue Aug 20 13:45:00 2002
205.188.195.182

John -

The best I've ever encountered is "Vector Globe World Atlas", which is published on a CD-ROM by Cartografx. It's easy to use, in full color, allows you to locate what you are looking for in an index with nearly 3-million place names and a click of your mouse, can be run in either the political/administrative mode or the topographical mode, has 3-D capability, allows you to print or to copy to a clipboard, etc., etc., etc. It's only $10 to $20. It will give you the tiniest of villages (pop. of just 50 - 100 or more). The only drawback is that it uses place names from the mid-1990's, so locations in Silesia and western Poland, for example, will not show up under their WW II names. However, there are several published references available that list all of the places that had their names changed as a result of WW II. You can check out the CD-ROM at: www.cartografx.com. (http://www.cartografx.com.)

Larry

(For additional comments on Vector Globe, see the topic "Vector Globe CD-ROM for locating places all over the world" on the "Airfields & Mapping" forum.

Regards,
Richard)

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
nick@nblkp.free-online.co.uk
Innsbruck Me 262s
Sat Oct 5 17:19:57 2002
212.159.20.233

I've never seen an Allied report on them either, or - which is far more interesting - the Ju 87s and Fw 190s of NSG 9 and the Ju 188 of 6.(F)/122 found with them. Maybe it was too late for anyone to bother with a report, since the 262 was a known quantity by then. I guess if anyone did it, it would have been a USAAF intelligence team.

Get Robert Forsyth's "JV 44 The Galland Circus" and a large-scale map of Innsbruck (e.g. "Alpenvereinskarte Nr: 31/5, Innsbruck" which I got from Stanfords map shop in Long Acre, London: they have a website, I think) and plotting the locations is relatively easy with reference to landmarks in the background. The aircraft (with one exception? I forget) are scattered around the perimeter of the landing ground at Innsbruck-Hötting, now expanded into Flughafen Innsbruck-Kranebitten. This sits in a loop of the river Inn between the water and the mountains.

I tried to describe the locations of the NSG 9 machines in my book "Ghost Bombers: the Moonlight War of NSG 9" using the map method.

The airport is now a big modern instalation with concrete runways but the powerlines under which some of the 262s and other aircraft were pictured still run across the south-western corner, according to the map.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andy Dee
Pictures and maps over german fighterbases!
Sun Feb 23 21:25:00 2003
217.215.118.118

Hi!

Anyone who knows where I can find pictures or even better maps over german fighterbases from WWII?

//Andy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve Coates
Airfield Maps and Photos
Sun Feb 23 23:02:00 2003
81.131.121.74

Andy,

There are a number of files in AIR 40 containing maps of German airfields. I can't remember exactly how many but they are to be found in the vicinity of AIR 40/1240. These make very interesting reading. Some but far from all of this material was reproduced in Ries' book 'Fliegerhorste'.

Depending on what you're looking for, you might well also come across something of interest in AIR 34, being the records of the Central Interpretation Unit.

Steve Coates

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Kari Lumppio
NSGr 10 Stukas at Fürth April 1945
Sun Feb 23 22:04:01 2003
193.229.6.165

Hi!

In Mandfred Griehl's book "Junkers Ju 87 Stuka" p.228* there is photo of a Ju 87D at Fürth identified belonging to NSGr 10. Nose is yellow as is rudder (these were standard ID markings for Hungarian direction of Eastern Front?). Third letter of code seem to be either I or L and dark with white border. Does someone know the full code?

In "The Official Monogram Painting Guide to Luftwaffe Aircraft", p. 70 there is also photo of Ju 87D WNr 141286 in very similar markings. I have only a bad quality photocopy of the page which doesn't show the markings too well. Is this the same plane as the one above (with wheel covers removed)? In the Monogram book the photo is color one?

Is there more published or unpublished photos of these Nachtschlachtgruppe 10 Stukas at Fürth?

Thanking in advance,
Kari


*The English edition by Airlife, ISBN 1 48037 198 6

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
NSG 10 Ju 87s
Sun Feb 23 23:17:12 2003
212.159.50.222

Although this is not the offical code of NSG 10, there was H5+MK (Ju 87 D-5, WNr. 666017) found by the RAF at Wörschach/Aigen, Austria

From time and place and the last known Luftwaffe deployment maps (KART 40 series at Freiburg), this and the Fürth planes would appear to be aircraft of 2./NSG 10.

The third letter of the code is generally thought to be red with a white outline.

The yellow nose ring and rudder markings: George Punka's book "Messer" on the Hungarian Bf 109 units (buy it if you can find it!) says that:

"From March 7th 1945 on, following the 4th Fliegerkorps' directives, day fighters in the south-east sector of the front displayed new Theatre of Operations markings: a 50cm wide yellow band was painted around the front of the engine, right behind the spinner and the rudder was painted yellow. The previous yellow "V" and fuselage band were omitted."

There are photos of the Fürth aircraft (they landed there to surrender, I don't know where they flew from) in issue 3 of the now-defunct magazine "Airfoil." Steve Sheflin who contributes to this board was the publisher.

Christian Möller has done some work to resolve this problem with the unit code and he can explain it better than I can.

[Richard T Eger]

From further within the thread on TOCH!:

Christian Möller
NSGr. 10 - code H5
Wed Feb 26 14:04:24 2003
217.184.235.104

First, excuse me for not having answered earlier!

Secondly, Nick is an expert in Nachtschlachtgruppen and he did an outstanding research on NSGr. 9. I can recommend his book very highly, it´s a benefit and has solved yet another mystery of GAF during WWII. Thank you very much, Nick!

Now, here´s my theory regarding the strange code used by 2./NSGr. 10:
In September 1944 5. & 6./LLG 1 were renamed 1.&2./NSGr. 10 using the new code "5B" (while LLG 1 used H4). On 12 November 1944, 2./NSGr. 10 (ex 6./LLG 1) was dissolved, while 1./NSGr. 5 became the new 2./NSGr. 10 (not certain changing code from F9 to 5B at once, but most probably). However, this "new" squadron was still staying with NSGr. 5 in Hungary at least during February 1945!
Now, on 13 March 1945 Stab and 1./NSGr. 10 were ordered to dissolve. Although, they did exist for some time afterwards. However, all planes were destroyed during a figther-bomber attack on Münsteuer am Inn/Austria during 1 April 1945 (? date uncertain). While 2./NSGr. 10 has been away from this airfield, being stationed somewhere in Hungary or Slovakia at this time (and before during March). 2./NSGr. 10 (new) was assigned to 18. Fliegerdivision (renamed from I. Fliegerkorps on 2 April 1945), Luftflotte 4, and stayed with it until war´s end in Enns, Budweis and Wels/Austria. As there hasn´t been any Stab, they must have been supplied by 18. Fliegerdivision, I guess. So, it might have become an independent squadron then and changed code from 5B to H5 showing they belong to 18. Fl.Div.. Maybe, 18. Fl.Div. used the partial code H5 also? (Gen.Kdo. I. Fliegerkorps used the code B1+.A [later B4+.A?]) Another theory: They changed the code in order not to be mixed with other units under command of 18. Fl.Div.? During April 1945, the follwing untis were stationed at Enns and Budweis: Stab, 2. & 3./NAG 14 (code 5F+.K, .L) and 2./NAG 16 (5H+.K).

Concerning Ju 87 D-7 & D-8:
Well, we have discussed this problem in older issues of the "Luftwaffe Verband"-journal (No. 25 to 27). And like Nick I´ve never seen such subtypes before and my loss lists for the Nachtschlachtgruppen is quite extensive.
However, the Ju 87-manual (Jan. 1944) gives these subtypes as follows:
Ju 87 D-7 Land/Schnee (land/snow): a re-fitted Ju 87 D-1 version using the bigger wings of the D-5 (incl. the MG 151/20).
Ju 87 D-8 Land/Schnee (land/snow): a re-fitted Ju 87 D-3 version (other source says without Rüstsatz armor) with the D-5´s wings!
To what extent the versions D-1 & D-3 were refitted to become D-7 & D-8 is not known. As these subtypes were not aircraft from a serial production, but altered aircraft, one wouldn´t notice such a version by simply looking at their serial number (which would imply it is a D-1 or D-3 then). Only a photograph may be of help to compare the size of the wings and the fuselage used (the serial number should be visible to recognize the version D-1/D-3).

Keep in mind, to use a Ju 87 for the night ground attack role, they´d simply applied the Rüstsatz FLA (flame dampers; tubes which were fitted to the exhausts). So, every version could have become a "Nachtschlacht-plane". There hasn´t been a special "Nachtschlacht"-version of the Ju 87.

I think once someone has written of the possibility to use D-7 & D-8 at night (also), which was taken by mistake that all NSGr. used these versions.
Indeed, several losses give Ju 87 D-3 (N) and D-5 (N), indicating the use of Rüstsatz FLA - (N) = Nacht/night! Additionally, a roman number occurs sometimes: Ju 87 D-5 (N) VII or Ju 87 G-2 XVI. Well, I think the roman numbers just refer to the radio-type used, e.g. FuG 7 or FuG 16.

Hope this helps?
Best wishes,
Christian Möller
Germany

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

John Beaman
OT, but does...
Thu Feb 5 19:15:02 2004
24.163.17.93

...anyone have a URL for a map site that shows geographic names for regions like mountains, etc., instead of just political or town names like MapQuest?

TIA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andy Mitchell
OT But does
Thu Feb 5 21:59:38 2004
80.2.186.192

John,

Please see the University of Texas Map link below:-

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/index.html

This should give you a selection of maps to look at.

Regards

Andy Mitchell

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andy Mitchell
here are a couple more
Thu Feb 5 22:38:28 2004
80.2.186.192

Physical Maps but not detail:- http://www.sitesatlas.com/Atlas/PhysAtlas/C5.htm

Links to small maps identifying bodies of water:-
http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/watera.htm

A map link page

http://www.colorado.edu/geography/virtdept/resources/map_libs/map_libs.htm

Good Luck

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Probably the best and quickest....
Thu Feb 5 23:26:55 2004
205.188.208.167

way to find what you are looking for is the current edition of "Webster's New Geographical Dictionary" (that's the correct title). I would imagine Amazon carries it. It's the best investment you could make to quickly look up regions, bodies of water, mountains, etc., both large and small, present and past. Ten years ago the list price was $19.95. It will save you a lot of time searching around "iffy" websites.

Steve W.