Were more than one Werknummer ever used on a single aircraft?

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave McDonald
Two Wk.Nr. - same aircraft ?
Fri Dec 28 05:04:25 2001


Hi all

A 109G2 recovered from Russia has recently been found to have two werke nummer on the tail . Wk Nr 14798 is at a slight angle to the tailplane and the nummer '042' ( probably Bfl09G-2 wr nr 10422 from II./JG 5 )is also to be found in the 'normal straight'position . Evidence of Africa type camo is also extant .
Two questions ...

1.Anyone have data on wk.nr. 10422 ?
2.What are the chances of on airframe having two wk.nrs and why ?
Maybe given another identity after being returned / repaired following service in Africa ???

TIA

regards

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Bf 109G-2 WNr 10422 II./JG 5
Fri Dec 28 09:25:58 2001


Hi,

the loss is listed as a take-off accident at Alakurtti in Finland on May 13. 1943. Damage 60%.

I am currently trying to trace what happened after this, and will come back if I find aomething else.

Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Re: Two Wk.Nr. - same aircraft ?
Fri Dec 28 13:01:49 2001


I have the following information:

Bf 109G-2, 10422, II./JG 5, 13-May-43 Take-off accident. Finnland, Fl.Pl. Alakurtti, 60% damage.

Bf 109G-2, 14798, Hein, Uffz. Emil, 8./JG 5, schwarze 10 + 30-Mar-44, Bauchlandung after Luftkampf with Airocobras. Returned on skis.

What this means, I'm not sure. A 60% damage could be repaired for sure and there is 10 months between the losses, but there confusion between WNr. and part serial number.

It would seem very unlikely that either aircraft served in Africa.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Paul F. Straney
Desert Camo?
Fri Dec 28 16:02:04 2001


Hi;
just because an aircraft had desert camo doesn't mean it SERVED in the desert. Can't lay my hands on it at this moment, but one of the Flugzeug "Specials" had a picture of a Finnish G-2 on the cover in deset colors (78/79). If the Finns ended up with these, then dollar-to-donuts so did JG 5.

Paul

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Re: Desert Camo?
Fri Dec 28 16:06:06 2001


Hi Paul:

You are correct. Many F-4 and G-2 a/c that were painted in desert colors ended up in other theaters. His original question referred to the possibility of whether this a/c or another one mentioned could have served in Africa, been repaired, and then sent to Finland.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Paul F. Straney
Desert camo/service?
Fri Dec 28 16:21:55 2001


Oh, okay. I'd read his question to be asking if the aircraft could have seen service in North Africa BECAUSE there was evidence of "Africa type camo". I was explainiong that sometimes aircraft did indeed appear with deseert camo without ever having gone near a desert.

My bad.


Paul

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave
Desert service
Fri Dec 28 19:15:25 2001


Guys

I have been informed that a beetle was found in the airframe , and the bug type is only found in the deserts of Nth Africa ... so this definitely points to service in that theatre !
I know many F-4s were diverted from intended shipment to Africa and were sent 'North' . Carganicos' F-4 is an example....
the plot thickens ;-0

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Doc 109
See my comments on the Lair (NT)
Fri Dec 28 22:57:15 2001

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Fighter found in Russia
Sat Dec 29 16:49:00 2001


Hi Dave,

I’d like to add a few new informations on „your“ Bf 109s and also some thoughts.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 Werknummer 10.422 was a G-2/trop which was built a Erla-Leipzig in late 1942. It was damaged 60% at Alakurtti on 13. May 1943 with II./JG 5. Nearly a month later on 11. June 1943 it arrived at C.L. Brinker Eisenwerke who ran an aircraft-repair-facility at Oslo/Kjeller. Repairwork was finished on 9. Feb. 1944.
The a/c presumably was shipped to a Jagdverband in Norway, because on 22. March 1944 it arrived at Kjeller again for repair. This time work ended between 1st and 26th of September 1944. I have no information on the final fate of this a/c, but it is known, that a/c repaired at Kjeller usually were delivered to units in northern Europe.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 Werknummer 14.798 was a G-2 built at Wiener-Neustädter-Flugzeugwerke WNF pres. in January 1943. I have nothing to add to John Beamans information on its loss in 1944.
WNF never built Bf 109s with tropical-equipment, so it would be very ununsual to see a WNF-Messerschmitt in desert camouflage. If there are parts in “african-camo” on the wreck of WNr. 14.798, these most probable were “borrowed” from other a/c. WNr. 10.422 is a possible candidate, as we have no information on its’ whereabout in Feb./March 1944. We also have no clue, were it was in early 1943 (Africa?).

But one thing is quite sure: WNr. 10.422 and WNr. 14.798 were two different aircraft with different fates, and WNr. 14.798 was not allocated to the airframe of WNr. 10.422 after a major repairwork.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave
Thanks Charles....
Sun Dec 30 00:55:35 2001


.. very informative as usual ! damn confusing all these numbers being thrown about ;-0
The nummer 10.422 came from the Russian researchers , as they believe this is the aircraft now in Melbourne . Study of the tail shows the nummer xxx042 , which is in the 'ball park ' considering the weathering and passage of time . 14798 appears to be a early / original no. but has been applied on a odd angle - not parallel to the stabiliser, a more recent no. on top of Africa type paint ( gold / sand colour ) is parallel but only the last 3 digits remain - 042 ,
So there is also the possibility that 042 is the last digits of a totally different G-2 bloc as well !
Is there a specific group on nummers that could preceed '042' that were allocated to G2s ?
There is also a thought that '042' could be the construction nummer , but I believe this was only applied to Erla machines , of which 14798 wasn't !

best regards

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Doc 109
confused...
Mon Dec 31 15:15:10 2001


My records shows the 10319-10479 serie to be Erla G2, not trop, built between June and August 1942.

Several planes came to Finland in that range and none was a Trop. Finland got 2 trop G2, WrkNr 10488 &10522 which are belonging to the second serie of G2 built by Erla and supposed to be Trop.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the info that the bird was a trop one ?

Vincent

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Your info based on intel reports or Brinker reports?
Mon Dec 31 16:24:03 2001


Hi, Charles

I guess that Your information is based on data from the PRO, again based on intelligence information gathered by Norwegian civilians working at Kjeller?

The only logical explanation to the aircraft ending up in this area is that it was lost by either III. or IV. Gruppe JG 5 later than September 1944.

If we have correctly identified it....

Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Bf 109G-2 WNr 10422 or Bf 109G-6 WNr 410042????
Wed Jan 2 07:55:43 2002


Hi, all.

I have been following the discussion on this aircraft, and corresponded with Dave McDonald.

He sent me a photograph of the aircraft before and after it was salvaged, and I wanted to clear up a couple of issues.

In one photograph, You can see the upper part of the wing, wit a noticeable bump, in my opinion corresponding to the larger undercarriage wheels fitted to G-6 aircraft.

Another aircraft show the tail area with the stencilled WNr on it.

In my opinion, this aircraft is not WNr 10042, I just cannot see ANY trace of the last number "2", and the paint is rather fresh in this area, right in front of the lower part of the swastika.

My guess (and yes it is only a guess) is that we are really talking about Bf 109G-6 WNr. 410042 (or another G-series aircraft with last three digits '042').

Can anyone provide data for the other Bf 109G's with the WNr ending with '042' to contradict my guesswork?

BTW:

WNr 410041 was lost by 6./JG 5 on December 11. 1943

Regards and a happy new year from

Andreas Brekken

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave McDonald
Wing STKZ
Wed Jan 2 10:33:14 2002


Andreas

David Prewett also confirmed the wing STKZ after comparing and finding the correct set after studying the pre recovery shot . Last 3 letters are J + QP so as Mark [ Sheppard] has advised GJ + QP would be correct ...... any help or a hindrance ;-0 .

regards

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Depending on what it is
Wed Jan 2 13:45:51 2002


Hi!

If it is the remaisn of the Stkz for the whole aircraft of course of value.

If it is the remains of the first paintjob on the wings, not much value, as that stkz probably belonged to a G-6....

Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tomislav Haramincic
Bf109 GJ+QP
Wed Jan 2 19:56:11 2002


Hi Andreas and Dave,

I have the stkz. "GJ+QP" listed as a Bf109 G-2, WNr.14798, WNF.
Another in the "GJ+Q?" range would be the "GJ+QJ", also G-2, WNr.14792, now marked as Yugoslav White 63 (9663), at display in the Yugoslav museum of aeronautics.

best regards,
Tomislav

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave McDonald
So.....
Wed Jan 2 22:59:32 2002


Hi Tomislav

This brings us back to what was thought to be her original Wk.Nr. This nummer is also on the tail , but at an angle and also seeming to be the older one of the two aplied . See my original thread a page back regarding 'Two wk.nr. same aircraft '

regards

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tomislav Haramincic
I guess WNr.410042 doesn't fit eather
Wed Jan 2 20:00:55 2002


Hi Andreas,

According to my database WNr.410035 was "TV+II" and WNr.410052 was "TV+IZ", that would make (most probably) WNr.410042 "TV+IP".

hope this helps a bit,
best regards,
Tomislav