National Archives (Public Record Office)

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!

Franek Grabowski
German archives
Mon May 22 23:35:50 2000

I was never deep into Lw research, all of my time looking for Polish AF data, nevertheless I'd like to add few comments.
I had brief look to PRO catalogue and it seems only British files are held there. Some interesting data could be in RAE Farnborough library but I think those are reffering only to 'technicalities'. Never looked into RAF Museum or IWM, someone may add some comments on those archives?
Several interesting data and photos could be held at SHAA and other French archives, a lot of data should be at Czech republic but definetely the best archives are in Russia. However there's small but significant problem - they're hardly accessible.
On the other side the one must be awared that there was little interest in such data post war. People were interested in modern technologies, who cared about A/C production in Germany.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Philippe Willaume
on the fw190
Mon May 22 09:05:47 2000


air40/150 151 152 on the fw190

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
"air" Document Series
Mon May 22 13:56:36 2000


Dear Willaume,

The files designation air40/150 151 152 sounds like ones from the Public Record Office. Is that what you were referring to or did the "air" designations actually
originate with the RAE at Farnborough?

Last night I opened my box of material I had purchased at the PRO way back in 1974 relating to the Me 262. You might ask why, in 26 years, I had never sorted this
stuff and created useful files. Me, too, until I opened it up again to take a look. First, the pages are unusually large - 10" x 15" - which will require me to locate or buy
a 15" x 15" cutter (they aren't cheap) to cut them down to U.S. legal size of 8-1/2" x 14". But, that's a minor physical and financial barrier. The real stopper is that they
are just a large 4-1/2" stack of papers with no beginning or end. Staples would have done wonders to get these things organized, if that was even possible. It will be a
lot of work trying to sort out what belongs with what.

The files copied were in the air20 series, as recommended to me at the time by Richard P. Bateson. As I thumbed through some of these last night, I read of a lot of
preening going on in the British high command not wanting to appear to be behind the curve with the introduction of the German jets. The language, to say the least,
was very British upper crust. As I dug down further, I did get into some of the intelligence reports, reports which I also found at Maxwell. I didn't, however, find anything
during this cursory look that appeared to be original German documentation.

Regards,
Richard

Here was Philippe Wilaume's answer on TOH!:

willaume@eti.com
Re: "air" Document Series
Mon May 22 15:43:21 2000


those are PRO files and not ADFU or REA.

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 25 June 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: R.A.E. Documents
Sun May 21 21:16:29 2000


The PRO is to obsolete British military documents
as the NARA is to obsolete Department of Defense
materials. If the R.A.E. documents you are seeking
survive, they should be at the PRO. Try the PRO web site, or write the institution itself.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
PRO
Sun May 21 22:10:21 2000


Dear Rabe,

Care to share the PRO URL and address with us?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Frank Olynyk
PRO web address
Sun May 21 22:28:36 2000

www.pro.gov.uk (http://www.pro.gov.uk)

Frank

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
Public Record Office URL & Address
Sun May 21 23:21:38 2000


Dear Frank,

Thanks for the URL. Now, if they haven't moved since 1974, their address is:

THE PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Chancer Lane
London, W.C.2
England

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 25 June 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
PRO URL
Mon May 22 04:17:29 2000


Dear Frank,

Well, I tried it, but didn't have much success looking for things Luftwaffe (4 items) or Me 262 (invalid words) or Messerschmitt (no record). Is the site that vacant, or is
there some secret to getting to the real meat?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Frank Olynyk
PRO address
Mon May 22 20:58:58 2000


Richard,
The PRO moved many years ago. When I first visited it in 1979 it was already out in Kew, which is still on the underground, but I long haul from Hendon where I am
staying for three weeks (two left, sort of). Several years ago an additional building was added in Kew, and all the material left at Chancery Lane (pre 1800 stuff) was
moved to Kew. Chancery Lane I think now is part of the Family Centre, basically geneology. I have usually had trouble trying to use the PRO search engine on their
web site, but since when here I just chew on Air 1, Air 50, Air 27, etc., it is no big deal to me. If I get a chance I will try some of your search terms and see what turns
up.

Frank.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
Re: PRO Address
Wed May 24 00:01:42 2000


Dear Frank,

Thanks for the updated PRO address. I guess those that want the specific street address can go to the PRO web site. Please keep us updated on any new research
findings of general interest to the group.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Guy Finch
British Technical Documents
Tue May 23 11:41:18 2000


Although my field of research is British nuclear delivery systems, not the Luftwaffe, I will make the following general comments regarding British Official archives.
Firstly, don't make too many assumptions about what may, or may not, be in the PRO. One of the projects I am currently involved in is the cataloguing of documents
regarding British post-war missile development. Frankly, they are all over the place. Even with regard to Official Documents that should be at the PRO, some are at
the Science Museum or its Wroughton store (where not so long ago they found a brand-new crated BMW801 and an unspecified DB they did not know they had!The
crates were used to support a workbench....) some are still with DERA, some are in aircraft manufacturers archives, and a significant number are in private hands ,
particularly ex- RAE employees, many of whom still live in the Farnborough area... British archival policy,(to grace it with such a name)has been extremely haphazard
both in its selection of documents for preservation(IMPORTANT NOTE!Even without bombing the majority of Government documents were routinely destroyed,what is
left is only a representative sample of the most "significant". This is also not only true of the British Government. Nothing has "got" to exist...) and its disposal of those
that haven't is extremely erratic. I have even found nuclear weapon documents that should be at Aldermaston mis-filed at the PRO and even in the library of a
Cambridge College! As a pointer to further research,my guess(and it is only that!) is that there could possibly be "lost" RAE or Air Staff files(I am about to start
looking...),or even transcripts of German documents regarding aerodynamics, structures and systems with the old archives of various aircraft companies. Most of
these are now with various "heritage groups", but some may even lurk within various County Record Offices. Here are a few addresses for those interested.

Public Relations Dept
British Aerospace,
Warton Aerodrome,
Warton,
Preston,
Lancs PR4 1AX.

AH Fraser-Mitchell
Handley Page Association,
16,Guernsey Drive.
Fleet,
Hampshire
GU13 8TG

For Vickers, Supermarine and Hawker archives:

Brooklands Museum,
Brooklands Road,
Weybridge,
Surrey
KT13 0GN

Note, the private archives may take a while to reply, and none do research for you, you would have to visit. The Brooklands archivists are all volunteers, and they only
attend on certain days.
HTH Guy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: Document Destruction and Dispersion
Tue May 23 12:15:27 2000


Very, very well said, Guy Finch. Archives, being human products, reflect their creators! Situation you describe
with British archives also prevails in the States.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Frank Olynyk
Further info from the PRO
Tue May 23 22:26:08 2000


I asked today at the PRO about captured German technical and operational records. The staff at the help desk suggested that they would only have Foreign
Ministry/Office type records. Their suggestion was to try the Imperial War Museum, or the RAF Museum at Hendon. I may be able to check into what the RAF
Museum may have, but it will probably take a few days.

I also noticed a small poster on the wall, announcing a Liddell Hart Military Archives, with a web page, which I have now misplaced. My guess however would be that
there would not be much aviation oriented material there.

Frank.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
IWM and RAF Musuem
Wed May 24 00:30:40 2000


Dear Frank,

Thanks for the further input. We'll await your feedback about the RAF Museum at Hendon. In the meantime - yes I know its a huge subject - can anyone fill us in on
what the Imperial War Museum's holdings are regarding the Luftwaffe and German aircraft manufacture in WW II?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

RodM
Feedback Req - See Attached Map
Wed Oct 25 06:03:59 2000


Attached is a draft map of R.A.F. Bomber Command losses and Nachtjägd Abslusse claims for the night of the 16th/17th March 1945, during the combined attacks on
Nürnberg and Würzburg.

Sources for data were:

Koch's KTB of NJG 6
Chorley's Bomber Command Losses Vol. 6
Various other publications and documents
Privately supplied crash site map (from Luftwaffe Source)
Privately supplied claims list (from Luftwaffe source)

Members of this board (they know who they are!)

Anyway feedback would be welcome...

RodM

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1289853&a=9561897&p=31485544

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Simon Kularatne
Feedback on map
Fri Oct 27 02:04:52 2000


Rod,

IMHO this is an excellent piece of research which must have taken some work to collect the data. It is rare that such connections are made between the BC campaign and
the Nightfighter defence. Two sides of the same coin.

I am trying to do the same for the Berlin raid of 15/16th February 1944 when my father was lwt over the Baltic piloting a Halifax. I am using secondary sources of course but
I have quite a bit of info already. The trick is to put the two sides together.

AHB did send me a map showing the positions of NF attacks as reported by surviving crews in combat reports. These attacks could show routes of NFs making multiple
attacks.

Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Simon

[Richard T Eger]

I was quite intrigued by both the sources Rod Mackenzie had used and the superb map that he was able to create as a result. Unfortunately, the map, which he did show on 12 O'clock High!, is not reproduced here. In glorious color, Rod showed every R.A.F. loss juxtapositioned with every Luftwaffe claim. It is truly a beautifully done bit of research.

I subsequently wrote to Rod for more details about his first 2 references, which I thought might be of value to the LWAG community. The following is Rod's most generous response:

"Dear Richard,

thanks for your e-mail.

The two references in full are:

"Das Kriegstagebuch des Nachtjagdgeswader 6"
by Werner Koch, Eigenverlag-Wittmund, 1996

"Bomber Command Losses Vol.6"

by W. R. Chorley, published in the UK

The work by Werner Koch is from the War Diary of Stab/NJG 6, which, I presume is at Freiburg.

The work by Bill Chorley is from a variety of sources (but unfortunately not the Missing Research & Enquiry Service reports; held by the Public Record Office but closed for a further 25 years) - namely, Sqdn Operational Record Books (held by P.R.O.); Aircraft Loss Cards (held by the RAF Air Historical Branch and, I think, the RAF Museum), and; Commonwealth War Graves Commission registers.

Two of my source documents were probably from the Gemeinshaft der Luftwaffe Jagdflieger, although I am trying to confirm this since I received them through a third party.

I am definitely not an expert on surviving LW documentation but have been fortunate in receiving help from the LW Discussion Board and other sources that enabled me to undertake the construction of the map.

For those trying to match LW claims against RAF Fighter Command losses, Norman Franks has published various volumes of "Fighter Command Losses", which, I think, is complete up to 1942-43 at this time.

A note should be made on the accuracy of the published volumes of "Bomber Command Losses" and "Fighter Command Losses" because of the information available to the writers. As stated before, until the M.R.E.S. files are accessible, the loss data cannot be properly verified.

Regards

Rod Mackenzie"

Thanks, Rod.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

Rod followed up with the following:

"1. DOCUMENT SOURCES

Firstly, the following references are for surviving documents relating to the Nachtjägd:

B.A. - Freiberg

RL 10/539 Kriegstagebuch I./NJG 1 (13-6-44 to 3-5-45)
(War Diary)

RL 10/540 KTB II./NJG 1 (3-9-42 to 22-5-44)
(War Diary)

RL 10/541 KTB II./NJG 1 (23-5-44 to 1.5.45)
(War Diary)

RL 10/572 Abschussliste II./NJG 1
(victory list)

RL 10/598 Kurze Kriegsgeschichte III./NJG 1
(short war history)

RL 10/620 Abschussliste III./NJG 1
(victory list)

RL 10/604 KTB III./NJG 5
(War Diary)

RL 10/637 Personalverluste, Abschusse NJG 2 (12-42 to 5-43)
(personnel losses and victory claims)

RL 10/588 Geschichte I./NJG 2
(history)

RL 10/558 Einsatze 2./NJG 2
(this maybe a missions list)

RL 10/575 Bericht IV./NJG 3 (prev. III./NJG 2)
(report compiled post-war)

RL 10/603 Flugbuch Maj. Paul Zorner III./NJG 5
(Flying Log Book)

RL 10/542 KTB Stab/NJG 6
(as used in Koch's book)

RL 10/576 KTB I./NJG 11, 3. Staffel (1-11-44 to 15-1-45)
(war diary)

RL 10/577 KTB III./NJG 11, 7. Staffel (12-1-45 to 6-6-45)
(war diary)

John Manhro supplied these details, based on his own visits to Freiburg


PRO - London

The following documents in the AIR Series may of interest (+/- indicates that the document references before and after the one given relate to the same series of documents):

AIR 14/3220+/- Bomber Command Raid Plots
(with maps of aircraft crash locations compiled after the
war)

AIR 24/260+/- Bomber Command Intelligence Reports & Narratives
(includes transcripts of intercepted radio commentary
broadcast by Luftwaffe controllers)

The original transcripts of radio intercepts of Luftwaffe broadcasts is also held at the P.R.O., I'm not sure on the Lettercode or Class numbers.

I only needed the NJG6 KTB as published by Koch (plus a claims document supplied privately) for my map, I've included all these references since I'm sure they'll be of use."


Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

Rod also had sent along a list showing HW 5 reports at the PRO. So, I asked the following:

"Are the HW 5 file notations those of the PRO or the original intelligence gathering organization or both? In other words, if one went to the PRO, would what you have shown here be the actual file identifications for locating the files at the PRO? Can PRO documents such as these be purchased long distance and, if so, how? Perhaps the PRO has a website that explains this."

To which Rod responded with the following detailed information:

"Firstly, it appears that you are unaware of the P.R.O. website. It has the best online catalogue of any archive in the world:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/ (the homepage)
http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ListInt/Default.asp (the searchable catalogue)

I carried out the search for the transcripts "long distance" via the P.R.O. Catalogue site. There are a lot more documents that could be found with the right keyword search.

From the look of the title headings of the HW 5 class of documents, either they have not been fully indexed or the details have been provided in a piecemeal fashion by researchers over the years. I don't know if the documents are in German or have been translated into English; I don't know how the actual documents themselves are titled and I presume that the titles listed in the catalogue were made up by the PRO from details on the file covers. The details on the list are a general description of (some of?) the contents (yet most of the files are untitled, so the contents are not apparent).

To get the right file, all that would be needed is to quote the PRO reference (e.g. HW 5/123).

It appears that the documents for any given time period are a collection of all or most of the important intercepts, meaning that they may be on a variety of different subjects. I should think that there is a lot of "chaff among the hay".

Unfortunately, from my understanding, it is difficult to obtain documents "long distance" from the PRO and you would need to hire a professional researcher (they charge around US$15-18/hour and add on associated photocopying costs)."

Thanks, Rod, for this really key information on PRO holdings and dealing with the PRO!

Regards,
Richard