IWM microfilms of aircraft loss records of the Luftwaffe Gen.Qu.M. 6. Abt. - 4

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
Grislawski bailed out four times, only two filed
Mon Aug 6 20:43:31 2001

When one compares the daily loss returns to Generalquartiermeister der Luftwaffe (GQu) with various other first-hand reports such as Luftwaffe pilot log books, it is easy to find numerous cases when losses simply are missing in the GQu lists. For instance, I've been doing deep research into Alfred Grislawski's career as fighter pilot during WW II (for my forthcoming biography on him and Hermann Graf). I've found four clear cases - from Grislawski's original wartime papers - where Grislawski was shot down and had to bail out. Only two of these cases are noted in the GQu lists. Just as an example. I don't imply that I draw any general conclusions from this.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Grislawski bailed out four times, only two filed
Tue Aug 7 01:18:23 2001


Christer, my first question to that statement would be - when did these bailouts occur? If any were in 1944 and Grislawski uninjured there won't be a record, at least within known surviving documentation.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Grislawski's "unrecorded" bailouts
Tue Aug 7 19:41:42 2001


The "unrecorded" bailouts took place on:

Jan 18, 1943 - Kuban area, Eastern Front.
July 27, 1944 - Caen area, Western Front.

Best wishes

Christer Bergström
www.blackcross-redstar.com (http://www.blackcross-redstar.com)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Grislawski's "unrecorded" bailouts
Thu Aug 9 01:19:10 2001


Well, the 1944 date explains one of them. The other, if I recall correctly from loss data, was when JG 52 was in rapid retreat due to the Soviet breakthrough in the Stalingrad area. They left quite a number of aircraft behind on several airstrips at the time. The loss was actually recorded, I think, but for the wrong reasons, and for the wrong unit. Supposition on my part, but a hand written 7 in German script could be misinterpreted as a 1.

Bf 109G-2 13909 GRISLAWSKI, Ltn. Alfred 133 7. JG 52 18-Jan-43 FSA after Luftkampf while escorting Ju 87s. His 'regular' machine from 25.10.42. Loss report and Fast say destroyed by own forces on 2.1.43. Loss report says 1./JG 52. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.14; Flugbuch; Fast, JG 52, IV p. 82 txt Krasnodar 100% F

Obviously some conflict as to details.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Bf 110 from 4/ZG 1 crashed 19 December 42 in Krasnodar.
Sat Aug 11 19:10:45 2001


I´m trying to know whether is possible to solve a mistery about this plane.

Jim P. posted here some days ago this data:
Bf 110 D 3 3666 Albrecht, Ltn Egon 4. ZG 1 19-Dec-42 Bauchlandung. Russland Gen.Qu.6.Abt (mfm#8)-Vol.13 Krasnodar 80% H (There may be more info on this machine in the new ZG 1 book)

In John Vasco´s new book this plane is identified as being a Bf 100 C-4* model. No werk nummer is shown and the damage is stated as being 45%

At first it appears that two different machines have been quoted as the one which crashed this day. Is it possible to someone confirm or ad any comments? Any Stammkenzeichen ? Any other information is available?

Thanks in advance for any help here !!

(*Sergio probably meant a Bf 110 C-4.

Regards,
Richard)

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Lynn Ritger
Does anyone have a loss record for this Bf109F?
Mon Aug 13 18:16:32 2001


Found this on Friday...

I'm guessing a Bf109F-2 of 5./JG53, late 1941-early 1942. Any additional info would be appreciated...

Thanks,

Lynn

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 13 September 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Does anyone have a loss record for this Bf109F?
Mon Aug 13 18:45:59 2001


Bf 109F-4 7187 DINGER, Fw. Fritz 4. JG 53 wei§e 4 + - 05-Oct-41 Notlandung due to enemy fire. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6; Prien, JG 53(2nd), p.300 foto, 305; Prien, JG 53, I, p. 416 txt Sologubowka 25% F

There's another photo or two in the Schiffer edition of Prien's JG 3 history. Also Claes Sundin has done a very nice color drawing of this plane that hopefully should appear in publication sometime soon.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

J.L.Thorsteinsson
Who flew this plane
Wed Aug 15 11:17:13 2001


Looking for the Pilot of this plane
Try: http://www.geocities.com/liebling0007/109PilotPage.html

hope it works.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Re: Who flew this plane
Wed Aug 15 21:40:47 2001


Bf 109G-2/Trop WNr 10544, Prior, Ltn. Herbert, 2./(H)14, schwarze 6 +, 07-Apr-43, POW due to Flak., Tunisia, Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16; Prien/Rodeike, Bf 109F, G & K, p.79 Photo

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

J.L.Thorsteinsson
Re: Who flew this plane
Thu Aug 16 03:38:03 2001


Wow !
If this is right, I am back to square one.
The information with the photo would be wrong then, for it said that the plane had been shot down by RAF Spitfires.
Looking for a loss of a 109 in Tunisia on the date 22nd of november 1942. 4 squadrons were in the area at the time as far as I know. JG 27, 51, 53 and 77. None of those list a loss at the date in question.
Quite a riddle, eh http://www.lwag.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
losses 22-Nov-42
Thu Aug 16 13:02:06 2001


No, not a riddle as there were two reports that day from JG 53.

Bf 109G-4/Trop 16008 4./JG 53 Taxiing accident. Tunisia Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12; Prien, JG 53, II, p. 803 Tunis 60%

Bf 109G-2/Trop 10556 4./JG 53 wei§e 3 + - Bauchlandung due to pilot error. Found by Brits on 4.5.43. Tunisia Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12; Prien, JG 53, II, p. 803; Prien, JG 77, III, p.1830 Bizerta-Sidi Ahmed 60%

Apparently not combat losses. Did the Spits overclaim or perhaps their claims were Macchi 202s? Perhaps one of our other Italian researchers can comment.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

J.L.Thorsteinsson
Closer view.
Thu Aug 16 14:27:32 2001


Hmm, Good sources.
But an overclaim, no. The Spitfire shot the 109's engine so it halted, and the plane landed at Bone, the brits field.
Pilot was captured alive and well, and not only did he meet his victor, but due to the cirkumstances he had to live with him for a couple of days!!!
Since the 109 landed on the brits field, there was no doubt about identity.
The date of this incident was 22nd of nov 1942, however with a possible days error or so.
Lets dig deeper.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Re: Closer view.
Thu Aug 16 15:13:46 2001


There is nothing in my data that would indicate either the 21st or the 24th. However, there is the following:

Bf 109G-2, 14240, Münz, Fw. Reinhold, 6./JG 53, gelbe 4 + -19-Nov-42, MIA after Luftkampf with Spitfire, Tunisia, QM.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12; Prien, JG 53, II, p. 803, Between Bone and La Calle, 100%

The key there may be MIA after battle with Spitfire.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrew Arthy
Reinhold Münz
Thu Aug 16 15:48:57 2001


Hi,

Prien states that Münz was actually killed in this combat, so I guess it can't be the right aircraft. Münz was lost while escorting one of III./ZG 2's six (!) missions on this day.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Thomas Lund
Anyone got the Osprey Zerstörer aces ?
Wed Aug 29 12:36:24 2001


Hi guys

If you own this book, can you tell me if it is only
110 C/D or if there are any aces in G's ? Also
slightly interested in E/F's. Are there any color
profiles.

Thomas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

indianer
Re: Anyone got the Osprey Zerstörer aces ?
Wed Aug 29 18:47:30 2001


According to the book (important disclaimer!),
the following profiles are G's :
'S9+IC' - Gunther Tonne (II/ZG1) ~ 20 kills ?
'2N+AM' - Helmut Haugk (4./ZG 76)~ 18 kills ?
The E's :
'3U+AB' - Wilhelm Spies (I/ZG 26) ~ 20 kills ?
'3U+BC' - Ralph von Rettberg (II/ZG 26)~ 8 kills ?
'3U+AC' - Werner Thierfelder (II/ZG 26) ~ 27 kills ?
'3U+AR' - Georg Christl (7/ZG 26) ~ N.A.
'3U+FR' - Alfred Wehmeyer (7/ZG 26) ~ N.A. here, 18 according to Jim P. lw aces database
'LN+FR' - Felix Maria Brandis (1.(Z)/JG 77) >=14 kills ?
'S9+AH' - Wolfgang Schenk (1./SKG 10) ~ 18 kills ?

All profiles in col.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Nice pretty drawings with nary a photo
Wed Aug 29 20:22:49 2001


documenting a one of them. Schenk and Brandis' machines weren't Gs either. Schenk's known 110 was an E coded S9+AH.

Bf 110D-3 3710 Brandis, Ltn. Felix (F)/Gans, Gefr. Matthias (Bf) Z-St. 77 LN+AR 17-Jul-41 Crashed due to engine damage. Bf killed. Finnland Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Valtonen, LW Pohjoinen Sivusta, p.358 LW in Finland Vol.2 p.50; JG 5; Bf-110 in Action (Warlamowo) 100% F

Bf 110D-0 3170 Brandis, Oblt. Felix (F)/Baus, Gefr. Herbert (Bf) 2. 77 16-Sep-41 Notlandung due to Flak. Finnland Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6; Valtonen, LW Pohjoinen Sivusta, p.361 Lizabucht 100% F

Bf 110E-2 2546 Brandis, Oblt. Felix-Maria (F)/Baus, Fw. Herbert (Bf) 18 6.(Z) 5 LN+LR 02-Feb-42 Killed, hitting the ground in bad weather. Bf injured. Finnland Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol. 8; Valtonen, LW Pohjoinen Sivusta, p.364; LW in Finland Vol.2 p50; JG 5; Bf-110 in Action near Olanga 100% F

Bf 110E-1 4114 Brandis, Oblt. Felix-Maria (F)/Baus, Gefr. (Bf) 18 1.(Z) 77 LN+FR 8 wei§ abschu§balken: 5 RAF & 3 Russian; pointed gelb spinner caps 01-Sep-41 Notlandung due to bad weather and lost. Crew and aircraft OK. Finnland Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6; Valtonen, LW Pohjoinen Sivusta, p.360; LW in Finland Vol.2 p50; JG 5; Bf-110 in Action; LW in Sweden p.93 fotos, p.122 txt Tärendo, Sweden/flight from Rovaniemi b F

One legit plane:

Bf 110G-2 HAUGK, Hptm. Helmut 18 4. ZG 76 wei§ A 2N+AM wide yellow RVT band has 4 WGr21 rockets & 2 66 gal. tanks RVT LFU Europe 42-45 p19 foto; Philpott, FDR p65 foto (same)

[Richard T Eger]

This is an administrative message to place this series of topics in correct order.

Regards,
Richard