NA (PRO) A.I.2(g) reports

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Huib Ottens
Looking for info regarding RAF Repair and Salvage units.
Mon Mar 5 14:53:09 2001

I am looking for information regarding RAF Repair and Salvage units. I am especially looking for info regarding the units that were involved in bringing captured German airframes to the UK during the final stages of WW II and after the end of the hostilities in Europe.

I know for instance (from "War Prizes" by Phil Butler page 55) that No. 417 Repair and Salvage unit transported the Ar 234 B-2 (Wnr. 140596) that landed on Eelde airport on the 3rd of October 1945 to Farnborough (For the “full” story please checkout the winning entry for the Classic Publications Luftwaffe Writers Competition 2000 at: http://WWW.classic-books.co.uk .

I hope these units (or other special units carrying out the same tasks) kept files of their activities and I wonder if these files were saved after the war. If so where are they located (PRO?) and how to access them?

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 05 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jaap Woortman
RSU's.
Mon Mar 5 18:48:56 2001


Dear Huub,

You can find these units ORB's at the PRO in Kew, London.
Air 29/800 and higher. Try their online cataloque at www.pro.gov.uk (http://www.pro.gov.uk)
But I think normaly these investigation were done by A.I.2.(g)(Air Intelligence) and not by RSU's.
I think Eelde was an exception. A.I has already visited Eelde far before that date.

Jaap

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Huib Ottens
Thanks Jaap, Learning all the time! (n/t)
Mon Mar 5 22:35:26 2001

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

gianmaria
Looking for info??
Tue Mar 6 22:58:31 2001


You may take a look at www.british-forces.com (http://www.british-forces.com) and see what comes up.
Regards,
G.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Chris Eldridge
BT torpedoes
Fri Mar 14 04:45:07 2003
142.59.222.230

Looking for info on BT torpedoes as tested on F.W.-190's.Want to know about propulsion system and test results for Luft 46 model project.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Bombentorpedos
Sun Mar 16 00:25:00 2003
212.159.53.202

There is an RAF Intelligence report on the BT weapons in one of the files of A.I.2(g) at the Public Record Office. I don't have the precise reference but AIR40/2161 or /2162 are possibilities.

IIRC it was based on items found in a factory in Eastern France.

The BT doesn't have any propulsion sytem except gravity. It was designed not to depart from its trajectory when it entered water.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Chris Eldridge
BT weapons
Sun Mar 16 02:42:31 2003
142.59.222.230

Thanks heaps Nick. This is the first info I've gotten on the subject.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Eduardo
Planes found by Allies
Wed Aug 18, 2004 02:50
200.98.60.207

I would like to know how can I get informations about
Luftwaffe aircraft found in German bases that were overrun by Allied troops.
Eduardo.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bard
War Prizes by Phil Butler
Wed Aug 18, 2004 15:28
130.67.45.43

Butler's book should give you a good idea of what the allied captured (and preserved in museums)

War Prizes, Midland Publishing (Excellent) in the 90's
An illustrated survey of German, Italian And Japanese aircraft brought to allied control

You can get this book at a Bargain price from Midland Counties now.
do a search, and you find it
www.ianallansuperstore.com

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Wrecks and captured aircraft
Wed Aug 18, 2004 13:25
212.104.129.220

What you need is file AIR40/45 at the UK National Archive in London. This covers werecks etc. in Britain and northern Europe.

There are also a number of other useful files for Africa and the Mediterranean.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
File AIR40/45
Wed Aug 18, 2004 13:45
216.80.149.227

I am not familiar with the UK agencies, would this file be available in microfilm? I assume it contains the A.I.2(g) field reports and or their summaries. Does it also contain the MAAF field reports or are these in separate folder/folders?

Thanks,

Artie Bob

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
AIR40/45
Wed Aug 18, 2004 19:34
80.225.118.100

Paper only, I'm afraid (and recently all the pages have been reinforced with backing material, so they will "live" many years longer).

MAAF reports are not so straightforward and I don't have the full list of references in one convenient place but (again on paper) there are AIR23/3458 & 3459, 3460 and 3461 as well as AIR24/1000, 10001, 951, 952, 953, 954 & 955 plus other reports in various locations. The AIR51 microfilm series has some of the same things which is far from logical (and only released after I had done all my research for "Air War Italy 1944-45"). Every reel is a near-random mixture of material from MAAF.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
A.I.2(g) Crashed Enemy Aircraft reports
Wed Aug 18, 2004 14:04
69.72.3.192

Dear Artie Bob,

THE NA (PRO) has a very nice search engine. You can reach it at:

http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.asp

Since you know the file, AIR 40/45, just type it into the Go to references block. You then get the following description:

"Crashed enemy aircraft reports: Nos. 154-270 (incomplete)
1942 Oct.-1945 May

Covering dates 1942 Oct.-1945 May
Scope and content Crashed enemy aircraft reports: Nos. 154-270 (incomplete)"

However, the same reports are available closer to home at the AFHRA under 512.651N. I can't attest as to whether the AFHRA files are complete.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Eduardo
Data base on line?
Wed Aug 18, 2004 15:00
200.98.141.99

Is it possible to get these informations on line without having to make a trip to London?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
NA (PRO) holdings
Wed Aug 18, 2004 15:19
69.72.3.192

Dear Eduardo,

I very much doubt it. The search engine is a fairly decent guide to locating possible files of interest. It is a compromise between too little and too much information. The fact that it gives as much information as it does is great. Try matching that with the U.S. National Archives on-line and the British have us beat hands down. Either that, or I am simply too stupid to fathom our own system. The NA (PRO) search engine is a breeze to use.

If you have a microfilm reader that you can gain access to, you could order reel(s) of microfilm covering the identification number I mentioned from the AFHRA. I believe the cost is $30 US, which includes shipment to any part of the world. The film is 16 mm.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
The Two Archives
Wed Aug 18, 2004 16:39
205.188.116.80

Richard -

Your comments are correct and I fully agree with them. However, in fairness it should also be pointed out that the two archives employ different policies regarding the retention and preservation of documentation. In effect, the U.S. government saves a far higher percentage of its records than does the British government. In years gone by researchers have jokingly said that the Americans save every last scrap of paper while the British purge and distill their records down to the most historically worthy 5%. This is an exageration, of course, but you get the point. Even if all else were equal, the population of the U.S. is nearly 5 times that of the U.K., hence its government generates nearly 5 times the volume of records. Which is the better policy? That's for each individual to decide. But I think it would be fair to say that if the U.S. followed the U.K. lead your would have a fury of howling, screaming historians and researchers to contend with because much of the detailed material that we all enjoy and find essential would be no more. If you would care to read PROLOGUE, the quarterly journal of the National Archives, you would get a feel for what would be needed in the way of resources to either (a) purge 90 - 95% of NARA's holdings, or (b) computer-catalog the holdings to conform to the standards established by the PRO. The sum involved is huge and I can assure you Congress and the American people would never approve it.

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From further within the thread on TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
It was an......
Fri Aug 20, 2004 22:52
213.25.54.73

...

Seriously, based on few own and quite a number of friends' experiences it seems that US records are far poorer than British ones. It is still very hard to find out exact US aircraft losses for example. RAF records seem more complete, and what is very important for me, much more easier to access. Have to say however, that Polish records in exile are much superior, presumably nobody bothered to reduce their volume. ;)
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Yes, Franek......
Sat Aug 21, 2004 01:35
149.174.164.74

the World War II records in the U.S. National Archives are so difficult and time-consuming to work with that it greatly diminishes their overall value. That part of your statement is true. However, for those who have the time and money to spend weeks and months researching at NARA in Washington, the rewards can be enormous. I spent one full month there each summer from 1979 to 1989 and I can only say that the depth and variety of the documentation is truly overwhelming. The international academic community concurs with this statement and rates NARA richer in overall holdings than the PRO. Did you know that most of the Allied intelligence documents about the Luftwaffe that are in the PRO in London are ALSO in the U.S. National Archives? Additionally, nearly all of the surviving Luftwaffe records presently at BA-MA Freiburg can ALSO be found on microfilm at NARA WashDC.

...

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Yes, Franek......
Sat Aug 21, 2004 15:05
213.25.54.73

Well Steve, accessibility of US records, for me practically impossible, is one thing. The other is what is actually there.
Concerning AI documents, it is really no surprise that they are here and there. Such documents were send to all the Western Allies I think, so possibly they are in other archives as well. Similarly concerning BAMA, no surprise as those were US troops who captured those documents. Have you ever wondered where are from all those photos at ECPA?
'My' problem lies elsewhere, however. I am not that much interested in German operations, practically limited to link them with Allied and especially Polish activities. I am often looking for details of US operations and replies I receive are not encouraging at all. One researcher even commented that RAF overseas documents (known to be far worser than those from home) are superior to any USAAF overseas ones. Depends on what the one is looking for.

...

Franek