IWM microfilms of aircraft loss records of the Luftwaffe Gen.Qu.M. 6. Abt. - 5

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

CJE
Max-Helmut Ostermann
Fri Aug 31 10:54:46 2001

If he was Staka of 7./JG 54, why do a certain number of photographs depict him in front of a "red 1" obviously belonging to 8./JG 54 (badge on nose)?
Did he borrow this a/c for a couple of missions?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
On Max-Hellmuth Ostermann
Fri Aug 31 12:06:48 2001


On Max-Hellmuth Ostermann:

"If he was Staka of 7./JG 54, why do a certain number of photographs depict him in front of a "red 1" obviously
belonging to 8./JG 54 (badge on nose)?"

Because he was Staffelkapitän 8./JG 54 from February 1942. (He was posted to 8./54 from 3./54, where he had served since he was posted from 7./54 in early November 1941.) Christian Kirsch, who is an expert on JG 54, should have the exact dates.

Best wishes

Christer Bergström

www.blackcross-redstar.com (http://www.blackcross-redstar.com)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: On Max-Hellmuth Ostermann
Fri Aug 31 12:56:55 2001


And it wasn't 'red 1', but 'black 1'.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Thanks, Jim. But still 8. Staffel? (n/t)
Fri Aug 31 15:28:55 2001

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Ostermann and the 8./JG 54
Fri Aug 31 15:57:39 2001


Not only a sw. 1 + , but quite possibly a COUPLE of them, or what appear to be multiple Ostermann Bf 109F-4s. The sw. 1 + with Oblt. Heyer walking away from it (WNr. 13 114,
I believe) apparently carried Ostermann's rudder markings but, recovering from wounds suffered in May, he may never have flown it before assuming the Bf 109G-2 in which he died (August 1942).

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Another mystery
Fri Aug 31 16:43:25 2001


Ostermann was 'officially' reported lost in Bf 109G-2 WNr. 10438, yet this machine appears, not once but twice, in losses after Ostermann's demise. However, in the GQM losses, the original WNr. appears as 10434, but is crossed out and replaced by 10438. Interestingly enough, 10434 fills a 'hole' in the G-2 losses, being one of a very few planes in that WNr. block that are unaccounted for.

Bf 109G-2 10434 OSTERMANN, Oblt. Max-Hellmuth 102 8. JG 54 09-Aug-42 Stkp. KIA in Luftkampf. S; Original entry says 10434 -replaced by 10438, is this correct? Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10; Obermaier p 31 Pl.Qu. 29523 - Ammosovo (150km S of Lake Ilmen) 100% F

Bf 109G-2 10438 Wübke, Oblt. Waldemar 15~ 7. JG 54 09-Sep-42 Stkp. WIA due to enemy fighters. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 Fl.Pl. Mga 15% F

Bf 109G-2 10438 Stöber, Fw. Kurt 36 7. JG 54 blaue 1 + ^^ blue nos. used at this time by 7./JG 54. 15-Jan-43 POW, cause unknown. FSA. DK Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Rosipal JG 54 loss list (Welikije-Luki) 100% F

[Richard T Eger]

The following comes from within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

"John Beaman
The reason I asked what type...
Sun Sep 2 19:45:41 2001


I asked what type because the record I have shows BF 109 #14058 was indeed

Bf 109G-1, 14058 lost by Schmidt, Oblt. Johann of 11./JG 26.on 19-Aug-42, Staffelkapitän. KIA in Luftkampf. Crashed into the sea 10km north of Dieppe. Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10; Caldwell, JG 26 War Diary, I, p.279

It would seem very unusual for this aircraft to wind up in the Northern Fleet museum!"

To see much of this thread, which revolved around a question of the identity of an Me 109 in the Northern Fleet Museum in Murmansk, go to the forum "Archives in the Baltics & CIS", then the topic "Museums with Luftwaffe aircraft".

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave
Safonovo 109 ....
Fri Sep 7 10:49:28 2001


Hi all

My Russian friend has returned from a visit to the Northern Fleet Museum with this info on werke nummers .......
Earlier it was discovered that 14058 was shot down into the sea off France - so can be discounted.
Andreas came up with a loss near the date given below for the 14658 number........
Who can add something about 14858 and 14958 - so we can discount the aircraft being one of these [ or not !]

TIA

Dave

"Sorry, but the dataplate is corroded and werk number may be 14058 or 14658 or 14858 or 14958. I talk with the men which was the member of the team which recovered the 109 and he said the they used old information about air combat on 23 March 1943. In this day the Russian system air alarm claimed about fall the 109 in the marsh. The team from Museum organized expedition in this
area and found this 109 in 1994. Later it was recovered and repair for static display."

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Safonovo 109 ....
Fri Sep 7 13:15:20 2001


Bf 109G-4 14858 Welsch, Ogefr. Heinz 5. JG 3 schwarze 2 + - NV+ML* 08-Jun-43 MIA after Luftkampf with LaGG-3. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3, p.407 Pl.Qu. 61/1/2, 20km west of Bjelgorod 100% F

Bf 109G-4 14958 Zimmermann, Uffz. Walther 9. JG 3 28-Jun-43 Killed, plane exploded on take-off. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18; Prien, III./JG 3, p.456 Makejewka 100% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave
Jim ....
Fri Sep 7 13:21:16 2001


Thanks for that - I guess we can eliminate these two as possible candidates as I don't believe JG3 operated anywhere near Murmansk !

regards

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Martin Gleeson
FW 200 loss on 20 August 1940.
Sat Sep 8 01:07:26 2001


Can anybody help with the Werk Nummer and model of the FW 200 F8 + KH that crashed on a mountainside near Cloghane in County Kerry, Ireland on 20 August 1940 ? The QM General Loss Returns do not include such details until a little later unfortunately. I do not have the Heinz Nowarra book on the FW 200 published in 1988. Are there any plans to reprint it ? Is anyone working on a new FW 200 publication or unit history of KG 40 ( less V Gruppe ) ? Regards. Martin Gleeson.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

ChrisGoss
Re: FW 200 loss on 20 August 1940.
Sat Sep 8 08:32:13 2001


20 Aug 40 was too early for Wk Nrs to be included in the QMG's Returns; the only source would be a photo or a note made by local people

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Lynn Ritger
Long shot loss request...
Tue Sep 25 01:07:11 2001


Does anyone have a loss record for Ju87D-5 T6+LS of 8./St.G.2? Near as I can tell, it would have to be March 1943 or later...also, this is even more esoteric, but is there any evidence that the Gruppe emblem was ever used on any D model aircraft? I'm asking because I'm in the throes of finishing a 1/48 Stuka and just randomly settled on this one gleaned from Rosch's book as something different from those options generally available on aftermarket decal sheets. Any and all assistance gratefully accepted...

Thanks in advance,

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Nuttin' here
Tue Sep 25 01:48:32 2001


Nothing for 'T6+LS', but if your looking to do an approximate of a notable pilot in a D-5:

Ju 87D-5 140286 PÄTZ, Ofw. Erich (F)/Schulz, Uffz. (Bf) 5. St.G. 2 T6+HN 25-Oct-43 Both MIA due to Flak. One parachute was observed. RK Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23 Kriwoi-Rog 100% F

Ju 87D-5 130507 HÖRNER, Oblt. Willi (F)/Jungwirt, Fw. Emil (Bf) 500+FF 7. St.G. 2 wei§ G T6+GR 21-Jul-43 Staffelkapitän. Both KIA in crash after ground fire damaged radiator. RK Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22; Bateson, R.P. Stuka! p64 txt South of Lomowez 100% F

Ju 87D-5 130931 ROKA, Hptm. Franz (F)/Koller, Fw. Ferdinand (Bf) 515FF 6. St.G. 1 gelb A 6G+AT 21-Oct-43 Both MIA after Notlandung and overturning due to enemy fighters. RK Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22 Rudja/Tschebotowitschi, south of Jelinez 100% F

Ju 87D-5 RUDEL, Hans Ulrich/GADERMANN, 2,530FF III. St.G. 2 grün T6+AD green prop front, heavy exhaust stains, Tiny T6 code His 2000.FF on 1.June 44 Romania Stukageschwader Immelmann p.287 foto Jassy

Ju 87D-5 KUNKEL, Ltn. Christian 400+FF 9. St.G. 3 gelb A S7+AT 27-Jan-44 Staffelführer. KIA with crew, striking ground after diving attack. RK Ru§land Obermaier, II, p.145 Katerles near Kerch 100% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lynn Ritger
Thanks much, Jim!
Tue Sep 25 11:30:00 2001


There are others in the pile where this info will be extremely useful, thank you. I've already laid down the "LS", though...so I'm somewhat committed at this point. Of course, there are those who suggest that I should have been committed long ago... http://www.lwag.org/ubb/wink.gif

Thanks again,

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Ota Jírovec
Franz Schall - his "Notlandungen" in 1943/44
Wed Sep 26 13:05:53 2001


According to E. Obermaier Oblt. Franz Schall was forced to belly-land four times his shot-up Bf 109 due to enemy ground fire (once behind the enemy lines) during his career with 3./JG 52, however there are no further details about these accidents. I also read somewhere that he was WIA during November 1943 due to Luftkampf. Unfortunately all this info is very vague. Does anyone know if any of these accidents are mentioned in LW loss records including some details (dates, locality, WNr.?). I realise these data need not be either complete or available since probably most of them occured in 1944 and he (probably) escaped unhurt, but what if...

I would highly appreciate any help.

Ota

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Franz Schall - his "Notlandungen" in 1943/44
Thu Sep 27 13:23:28 2001


Bf 109G-6 410131 SCHALL, Ltn. Franz 133 3. JG 52 gelbe 10 + 11-Nov-43 WIA by Flak. Bauchlandung. Ru§land Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23; Fast, JG 52, IV p.117 txt 3km south of Kertsch 10% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ota Jírovec
Many thanks, Jim (n/t)
Thu Sep 27 15:08:00 2001

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Simon Schatz
Messerschmitt Bf 110 C-4 Nightfighter Colour Profile
Wed Oct 10 17:35:11 2001


Hi all!
Just finished my newest colour profile!
It´s a Messerschmitt Bf 110 C flown by Leutnant Helmut Niklas, 6./NJG 1, May 1942

http://wald.heim.at/wienerwald/550166/bf110c4profil_links.jpg

In the future you can see mor of my profiles and models on my site! Will be online in the first week of November!
http://wald.heim.at/wienerwald/550166
Simon


[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Messerschmitt Bf 110 C-4 Nightfighter Colour Profile
Wed Oct 10 17:40:36 2001


The plane was actually an E.

Bf 110E-2 2654 Niklas, Ltn. Helmut (F)/Wenning, Uffz. (Bf) 8 6. NJG 1 G9+GP NJG1 badge, 1 abschu§balken on fin; RLM22 finish 31-May-42 WIA due to enemy fire. Bauchlandung. Bf OK. Later KIA in day action 30.Jan 44 Nachtjagd Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol. 9; Höhler, Deutsche Nachtjagd Personalverluste, p.9; Profile #207 color South of Landau, near St. Trond 20% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Simon Schatz
Thank's for...
Thu Oct 11 07:54:17 2001


Thank you for the additional information! I read in the book "Die deutsche Nachtjagd" that it was a C Version!
I´m not a perfect bf 110 expert to see the differences on the photographs I have!
Simon

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Simon
please tell me your source! n/t
Thu Oct 11 09:05:26 2001

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: please tell me your source! n/t
Thu Oct 11 13:21:48 2001


Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol. 9 - which is the document with the actual LW record of the loss as reportd. Höhler, Deutsche Nachtjagd Personalverluste, p.9 is a privately published list of LW NF casualties. Another more complete listing was published by Michael Balss - still adding these citations to my data.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Bryan
Luftwaffe Losses
Wed Sep 5 03:22:23 2001

Hello Listers,
Please could anyone inform me where I could look for
information regarding the loss of ( Possibly ) an He111

It would have gone missing or been reported lost on the
15th Febuary 1942. Its flight path would have been the
Western End of the English Channel Between (Approximately)
The Channel Islands & Plymouth.

Many thanks in advance for any assistance offered.

Bryan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
German losses
Wed Sep 5 12:32:47 2001

From your ISP address I guess you're in the UK? You need the microfilms of aircraft loss records of the Luftwaffe Gen.Qu.M. 6. Abt. at the Imperial War Museum Department of Documents, reference GER/Misc/MCR/18

They like you to give them 24 hours notice of a vist. Contact details are on their website, http://www.iwm.org (if I remember the correct URL)

[Richard T Eger]

This is an administrative message to place this series of topics in correct order.

Regards,
Richard