IWM microfilms of aircraft loss records of the Luftwaffe Gen.Qu.M. 6. Abt.- Jim Perry explains notes

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Pepin Mawr
7.4.41 JU Luftwaffe Transport Loss Info Needed
Wed Jan 16 21:12:16 2002

Looking for info on a JU series (believe Ju-88?) lost on April 7th, 1941. Believe unit is something like 1/KG zbv 102. The radio op's name was Herbert Osterkamp (Wuppertal 19/16/6). I have his info from the War Graves website, but that's it. I asked this awhile back and someone posted the data, but I cannot seem to place it in my files. I'm looking for anything really. Unit, manifest, mission info, fate/type of loss (I believe it was an accident but I'm not sure), etc. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

-Pep

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
This looks about right
Wed Jan 16 22:47:07 2002


Ju 52 6451 Köner, Ofw. Max KG.z.b.V. 102 1Z+BD DM+WV 07-Apr-41 Killed, flew into the ground in bad weather. 3 others KIC, 1 injured. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Nowarra, Junkers Ju 52 p txt Leitha-Gebirge 100% H

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Pepin Mawr
Hmm...
Thu Jan 17 00:12:25 2002


Yep that would be it. How do I decipher the response though? http://www.lwag.org/ubb/wink.gif

What's 1Z+BD...tail or fuselage code? Ditto for DM+WV. What's Mittelmeer Gen Qu 6 Abt? Also the MFM #3 Vol 4, Nowarra, Junkers JU52, Leitha Gebirge etc. I assume the 100% H means 100% destroyed.

Thanks!

-Pep

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Your questions
Thu Jan 17 03:06:55 2002


>What's 1Z+BD...tail or fuselage code?<

Fuselage code.

>Ditto for DM+WV.<

The originally applied factory codes aka Stammkennzeichen.

>Mittelmeer<

Mediteranean theater

>Gen Qu 6 Abt? Also the MFM #3 Vol 4, Nowarra, Junkers JU52<

Sources. The Gen Qu 6 Abt is the microfilmed record of the loss as reported by the Luftwaffe. MFM #3 Vol 4 refers to the particular microfilm. Some researchers would get even more specific, down to the exact document number, but hey, one has to have a life. Nowarra Ju 52 a book source.

>Leitha Gebirge etc.<

The location as listed in Gen Qu 6 Abt - the LW loss report. Gebirge meaning mountain. They flew into a mountain, Mt. Leitha to be specific, or the Leitha mountains. A range by that name doesn't register with me. One could spend as much time learning the minutiae on European geography as on researchingg the LW.

>I assume the 100% H means 100% destroyed.<

Correct. The H means the sortie was a non-combat sortie/not a flight against the enemy or whatever vs., well i hope you get the drift. This is a designation as given in the Gen Qu 6 Abt report.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Pepin Mawr
re: Your questions
Thu Jan 17 10:35:45 2002


Thanks so much for your help Jim! How does one go about getting a copy of the record of loss? I've been researching USAAF wrecks for years but I'm afraid I have no experience with Luft/Krieg a/c and what not.

-Pep

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Pepin Mawr
Photos of Ju 52 6451
Thu Jan 17 00:14:19 2002


Does anyone know of any photos of this a/c? Any refs would be great. Or any info besides what Jim provided in my query below (thanks Jim!). Thanks!

-Pep

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Günther Ott
DM+WV not identical to 6451
Thu Jan 17 14:37:06 2002


It should be noticed that St.Kz. DM+WV had been assigned to Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 7648 (first flown 14.07.42) and definitely not to the earlier W.Nr. 6451 as stated by Jim P.
7648 was a total loss with San.Fl.Ber. 3 on 28.07.43 and had previously also also been using V.Kz. 1Z+BD while serving with IV./K.G.z.b.v. 1, what obviously caused Jim's mixing-up of W.Nrs.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Pepin Mawr
re: now Iam confused lol
Thu Jan 17 15:24:10 2002


Now I'm confused. http://www.lwag.org/ubb/smile.gif SO what is the correct number and codings for the a/c I inquired about?

-Pep

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Günther Ott
Re: re: now Iam confused lol
Thu Jan 17 15:49:47 2002


No need for being confused - as for your 6451 just delete Stammkenzeichen DM+VW and stick to Verbandskennzeichen 1Z+BD (also note that Verbandskennzeichen were frequently reissued to replacement aircraft). Stammkennzeichen for 6451 still needs to be verified.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Pepin Mawr
re: my confusion
Thu Jan 17 19:22:00 2002


Thanks Gunther. Where do I search for the Stammkenzeichen? And how does one go about locating the record of loss info? Are they usually lengthy or quite short? Sort of like a MACR?

-Pep

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Tom Willis
Ju 52/3m W/Nr 6451 question??
Mon Jan 21 18:55:02 2002


Hi

This is ongoing from the previous discussion about the Stkz concerning the Ju 52/3m W/Nr 6451.

I can confirm that the Stkz DM+WV was part of a Production Block 7627 to 7652 (DM+WA/WZ).

I have the source for W/Nr 6451 as DM+WV from Nowarra but can anyone confirm this Stkz from the Gen.Qu.6 Abt loss records. (Up to this time my original lists are not complete).

My question is whether DM+WV is a typo error for DM+VW!!

In my Stkz records I have DM+VJ listed as a possible Ju 52 transport a/c listed from Allied 'Y' service intercepts dated for May 1944; travelling between Budapest & Bucharest.

The Ju 52/3m W/Nr 6451 was built before the introduction of the Stkz in Production Blocks so must have received it's Stkz when the a/c was assigned most likely to a Training Unit.

Does anyone else have any Stkz listings in the DM+V. series that might lead to an answer of the original 2nd line-unit that the Stkz was assigned to.

Kind regards

Tom

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Günther Ott
Re: Ju 52/3m W/Nr 6451 question??
Wed Jan 23 19:49:51 2002
212.211.87.3

Sorry to say, but W/Nr 6451 as DM+WV was just another of Nowarra's "errors" due to his lack of thorough research.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Willis
Thanks Gunther; I did wonder but needed confirmation!!
Thu Jan 24 17:59:31 2002
62.31.64.2

[Richard T Eger]

For further explanation of Jim Perry's notations, the reader is referred to the topic "IWM microfilms of aircraft loss records of the Luftwaffe Gen.Qu.M. 6. Abt. - 24" on the "Archives in the UK & Ireland" forum.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

This is an administrative message to place this series of topics in correct order.

Regards,
Richard