National Archives (Public Record Office) - 2

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!

Jaap Woortman
Heinkel He 113.
Mon Nov 6 16:26:16 2000

Dear friends,

At the web site of the Public Record Office at http://www.pro.gov.uk the PRO has published at "In The News" of 1st November 2000 an interesting article about The Heinkel He 113: the myth of an aeroplane. It has drawings and photographs of the "type".

Jaap

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 10 December 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

What followed this on 12 O'clock High! came a bit close to flaming, but there was sufficient merit in the discussion regarding the accuracy of the information provided that I feel it is worth including here. Remember, wartime intelligence gathering was mostly a fill in the blanks effort. Bits and pieces were gathered from various sources and a hopefully close to accurate report was issued. It was a best effort basis. As more information became available, the quality of the reports could be improved. In my own specialty, the Me 262, the drawings by intelligence were initially pretty crude, but gained considerably in accuracy as more information became known. So, anyone utilizing these intelligence reports to write a present day article has to keep in mind the potential inaccuracies inherent with what knowledge was available at the time. I've often thought it would be interesting to write an article illustrating the phenomenon of historical development of knowledge through refined intelligence as a function of time.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Very interesting but...
Tue Nov 7 10:44:30 2000


They states the "He-113" as being a development from He-112. AFAIK the "He-113" was the He-100 so after almost 60 years the British intelligence is still in error?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Luftwaffe Wings
He 100 - 112 - 113
Tue Nov 7 14:08:53 2000


Hej To all!

Dear Sergio, the He 100 was "transformed"(eh? redesigned!) to He 112. I don't know the specifics, but maybe the pictures show He 112's? I'll take a look too check it!

Sincerely,

Werner A. Hack
Webmaster Luftwaffe Wings

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
He-112 was not a "modified" He-100 !!
Tue Nov 7 16:16:00 2000


You´re doing a confusion! The He-100 was renamed He-113 Uhu for propaganda purposes. The He-112 has no connection with the He-100. He-112 even saw action in
Spanish Civil War. When the Heinkel lost the new fighter contract for Me-109, Ernst Heinkel asked a new project, more light and simple to construct that Me-109. Both
planes also started a fight for world speed record that was stoped by RLM (or another high echellon from Luftwaffe)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Luftwaffe Wings
Mix up!
Tue Nov 7 21:48:15 2000


Hej Sergio!

Slight mix up! When the He 112 was turned down in favour of the Bf 109. The He 112 was redesigned, and the He 100 was a new design, called He 112U for Propaganda
reasons to boast He 112 sales! The He 100D-series were called He 113 for Propaganda reasons, as you said. Well this might conclude the story for now. Now we should
take a look at the british pixs and determine what planes it were!

Sincerely,

Werner A. Hack
Webmaster LuftwaffeWings.Com

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

British idiots!
Tue Nov 7 22:03:55 2000


Hej Sergio!

Well these British intelligence officers must be complete idiots! The drawings show a He 100, that's for sure with HE 113 above it, but many squadrons and the history of
the plane? Man after so many years they should know better. Maybe they should buy "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" from Aerospace Publishing. About mix ups!

HEj då,

Werner A. Hack

Webmaster LuftwaffeWings.Com

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
British idiots? - Go easy...
Wed Nov 8 10:27:59 2000


Remember all this happened in the war... ALL "intelligence" in some extend got wrong information given from enemy´s intelligence. The PRO have shown the facts as they
were depicted in the files, I really can´t believe they could manage to correct all information on their archives!!!! We must see it as "was". An war time reporting. Ark Royal
was shown in Rio de Janeiro harbour after being sink just for british propaganda (counter-intelligence)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Lw Wings
Just teasing
Wed Nov 8 11:01:44 2000


Hej Sergio!

I was just teasing the Brits, but apparently nobody gave the correct answer, but you! You're absolutely right in that they give the facts as they had it then, correcting it
would be useless, and btw who wants to correct!

Sincerely,

Werner A. Hack
Webmaster LuftwaffeWings.Com

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Re: Just teasing
Wed Nov 8 11:54:30 2000


Oh yes... but just think... You submit a enquire to PRO and someone there do flights around TOCH...

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Franek Grabowski
See the BS on Enigma!!! (n/t)
Wed Nov 8 06:46:48 2000

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Re: See the BS on Enigma!!! (n/t)
Wed Nov 8 10:42:46 2000


Well Franek, I´m not an expert in this area so can´t comment any error but my think that the Enigma machime robbery has a real value. Maybe a computer expert looking
for a hacker attack free security software...They have interesting titles there!( book section )

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Franek Grabowski
Re: See the BS on Enigma!!! (n/t)
Wed Nov 8 11:34:26 2000


The problem is that the story told on PRO site has very little to truth. There was no worker-spy who created the copy. Polish intel was very interested in breaking the code
since introducing it by the Germans. Help has been received from France, who had interesting stuff but unable to use that. Special group intercepted the transported
Enigma and did some measurements, drawings and photographs but the time for that was very limited. Knowing the basics of the machine, ie. how it works, hard
theoretical work had begun. Three Polish mathematicians, Rejewski, Rozycki & Zygalski finally broke the code and prepared the theory of the machine. So called
'cryptographic bomb' has been prepared, an analogue predecessor of the computer which largely helped finding the proper settings of Enigma's rotors.
In August 1939 both france and UK received copies of Enigma, bombs and documentation. After the Polish Campaign Poles worked in France, however after the collapse of
the latter, they were withdrawn of any works at Bletchley Park.
Due to common opinions of French and Polish historians, in 1939 the Britts were far and away in the terms of decryptage. Polish help allowed them, and then Americans
(the famous purple code was Enigma's derivative) to make large step forward. This was acknowledged only this year by handing over by prince Andrew the captured
Enigma to representatives of the Polish government.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Many thanks!!! n/t
Wed Nov 8 12:23:52 2000

[Richard T Eger]

The following is taken from a thread on 12 O'Clock High1:

Nick Beale
Or if you want a real SG 4 machine...
Wed Sep 12 21:05:59 2001


PRO AIR40/45 has a brief wreck report on an Fw 190 found at Asch in Belgium. It was "orange 12" with the figures outlined in white and had six rails under each wing for 8cm rockets.

As I remember, Asch was attacked on 1 January 1945, so it's at least possible that this aircraft fell then.

As for "blue 8", it's like all the other profiles in that Air International article: i.e. don't take it on trust but look for some info to back them up, since no sources are given in the magazine itself. However, the text was pretty good for its day, as far as I recall.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Frederik
Encounter 18 September 1944
Wed Sep 26 22:41:07 2001


P-51’s of the 369th FS of 359th FG were flying area support for Market Garden in the Apeldoorn area on September 18, 1944, when two separate combats took place. I quote from the mission summary:

“Blue and Red flight encountered ME-262 at 15.00 coming from NE in their rear, same altitude 10,000 ft. Plane passed close by, they attempted to follow and Blue flight was almost immediately bounced by 35 gray coloured FW-190’s”

This bounce, which occurred between Apeldoorn and Arnhem, resulted in one claim, by Lt. Parsons at 15.15 hrs, and two losses: Lt. Sjoblad and Lt. Deen , also at 15.15 hrs. Lt. Gaines broke away from the FW-190’s but was supposedly bounced by a 4th FG Mustang! Then, at 15.20 near Dusseldorf, “Yellow flight” encountered “6 scattered ME-109’s with Zebra striped spinners, resulting in one claim by Lt. Crenshaw”

For the Luftwaffe experts: what units did the German ME-262, FW-190’s and ME-109’s belong to? Is there any information on the names of the German pilots involved? The FW 190 loss doesn’t seem to tie in with the loss listing given in Zwanenburg’s appendix to “en nooit was het stil”, so I am curious....

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dennis Peschier
Re: Encounter 18 September 1944
Thu Sep 27 09:57:20 2001


Frederik,
There is some info on the luftwaffen in “Facetten van de slag om Arnhem “ door Willem H. Tiemens ISBN909-269-4570-1. Pag.114-116.
On 18-9-44 JG11 (71 a/c) machine-gunned the landing areas west of Arnhem and a column moving towards the city. They were not intercepted. The formation that followed them probably was. II/JG300 was part of this formation. The combat report of 21-9-44 has an addition for 18-9-44 ”Uffz Gehrich’ein weitere Mustang’”

On Tony Woods luftwaffen claim list you can find Uffz Gerich III/JG300 mustang Nieuwkerk 3500 meter 16:26

Me262 units at the time were Ekdo262 and I/KG(J)51. The last one is the most probable.

Groetjes,
Dennis

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

frederik
thanks dennis, but..
Sun Sep 30 21:43:38 2001


..the time and location (if "Nieuwerkerk" is meant) of the II./JG300 claim don't seem to match.. SO I am still looking for a FW-190 unit operating gray aircraft that claimed TWO Mustangs in the afternoon..

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Me 262s in Holland
Sat Sep 29 22:58:43 2001


EKdo 262 was based down in Bavaria, so I think you can exclude them from consideration.

There never was a KG(J) 51, it was plain KG 51 (unless someone finds a wartime source that says different): it was a bomber unit, not s fighter one. In September 1944, translated Luftflotte 3 documents I have seen still talk of Kommando Schenk but this may officially have been absorbed into 3./KG 51 by this point. They were certainly bombing targets in Holland at this time.

The Me 262 recon detachment Kdo. Panther (aka Kdo. Braunegg) also operated over British lines in the autumn/winter of 1944. Possibly later than September however - I'd need to look up the date.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
18 September 1944
Fri Oct 5 18:33:24 2001


PRO file AIR20/7704 (Translation of Luftflotte 3 War Diary, September 1944) says that 3 aircraft of I./KG 51 (i.e. Me 262s) and 12 of III./KG 51 (i.e. Fw 190s) attacked targets in the Neerpelt area on this date.

re Kdo. Panther, I checked my notes from PRO file AIR40/2046: an advance detachment of Panther arrived at Rheine (NW Germany) on 6 November 1944. before that it was apparently at Lechfeld in Bavaria.