Gefechtsgruppe / Gefechtsverband

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Bob Morris
Drop tanks?
Thu Nov 14 16:40:42 2026
198.111.63.142

The whole GAF was up against the 8th on Jan., 44 and w/o fighter escort. Under these conditions on bomber interceptions at that date would it be standard practice to have:

1. almost all 190s & 109s fly with center line drop tanks at all times?

2. been a hit or miss thing, if someone thought they needed them they'd be attatched.

3. drop tanks were usually removed for bomber interception.

4. drop tanks were flown with but dropped before an interception.

I would think #4 might be correct but cannot remember reading of tanks being dropped.
Thanks for any help,
Bob Morris

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
German attack methods
Sat Nov 16 16:19:15 2026
62.245.163.10

Bob,

on 11. Jan. 1944 the standing order for attacking USAAF daylight raids was the "Kampfanweisung für die Jagd- und Zerstörerverbände in der Luftverteidigung" (roughly: Order of Combat for Air-defence Fighter- and Destroyer-Units) dated 3. Sept. 1943, General der Jagdflieger Br.B. 321/43 g.Kdos.

This five-page order includes detailed orders on approach, formation, attack and methods of radio-guidance. There is even an order to paint the fins of formations-leaders' a/c with white color. The standard-procdure was to gather at least two fighter-groups which were lead towards the enemy. Actual attack was to be carried out in Schwarm-strength (=4 fighters) with Schwarms following in narrow order. Pilots loosing contact with their units after the first attack were to look for "white-tailed" a/c to form a new unit and renew the attack.

When landing at an airfield after attack, all pilots on this a/f - regardless to what unit they belong - were ordered to gather at once, forming a new "Gefechtsgruppe" and start as soon as possible for a new attack. Leader of this Gefechtsverband was to be the highest-ranking pilot or
the Officer with the longest time of duty. For the purpose
of guidance the Gefechtsverband was named according to the airfield it was gathered.

So much for the orders. Of course Luftwaffe pilots not always were able to obay this orders up to the last word, but when looking at Allied combat-reports, most German attacks in late 1943/44 were close to them. So mixed units with Fw 190s and Bf 109s flying next to each other are quite possible, even on 11. Jan. 1944.

This orders most probably were soon altered with the introduction of "light and heavy fighter-groups" and "Company-Front-Attack", but I haven't seen any written order sofar.

As for drop-tanks: In addition to the above metioned order from 1943 I have an "Kampfanweisung für Jagdverbände" (Order of Combat for Fighter-Units) dated November 1942 and a "Kampfanweisung für Höhenjagdgruppen in der Reichsverteidigung" (Order of Combat for High-Altidude Fighter-Units within the Homedefence) dated Feb. 1944. None of this three detailed orders mentions drop-tanks anyway.

HTH

Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bob Morris
Thanks
Sat Nov 16 19:42:27 2026
67.26.10.205

Dear Charles,
Bless you! I feel like you have shown me the light! It feels like the puzzle is coming together.

I assume what you quoted was in German and not available in English?

Your information was exactly as I had supposed it might have been but was afraid to paint it so. Never dreamed I was so close.
I thought the white tails might be a neat idea and you have substantiated it.

To you and others on this site who have helped I owe a great deal of gratitude.

Thank you all for these gems.
Best wishes,
Bob Morris

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
German attack methods
Sun Nov 17 17:26:37 2026
213.25.54.73

Carl
My point is that it would be virtually impossible to keep Fw 190s and Me 109s in formation during the combat conditions - both are just too different in their characteristics. That says logic and eg. RAF experience.
OTOH Having in mind the Lw documents losses, can't you exclude that additional orders, memmoranda or bulletins reffering were actually lost?
Allied observations can't be a proof of anything - misidentification of types was more than common.
Regards
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Formation-flying
Sun Nov 17 20:55:43 2026
62.245.161.239

Franek,

I haven't been there, so I can't be 100% sure, but nevertheless the order is quite clear, without any exceptions, and it is from September 1943, when Luftwaffe had at least half a year experience combating large bomber-formations.

I understand, that you daubt, that it is possible to fly Fw190s and Bf 109 within the same formation. Yes, it would be difficult and perhaps the Germans avoided these mixed formation whenever possible. But the Germans in desperation never hesitated to use every available a/c to combat the ever increasing danger - they even sent up night-fighters and lonely Messerschmitts from schools or from factory-defence-units. Also this mixed formations were ordered not for the first action, but for the second one. Lacking sufficent reserves, Luftwaffe could not afford the luxus of "single-type" formations for a second try. And formations were neccesary, as single a/c had no chance oposing combat-boxes of B-17s or B-24s.

You have to remember, that flying in large formations was not a matter of using the best performance of your a/c, but an average performance allowing the weakest pilot with the worst a/c to keep in touch with the formation. Remembering this, the performance of a Fw190 and Bf109 will allow formation flying even under combat situation. So much for unproved theory.

Perhaps one or two hints, that mixed formation indeed were flown:

In a Jan. 1943 report on Fw 190 with Umrüstsatz U7, Luftflottenkommando 3 (which was responsible for fighting the RAF on the Channel front) complained about the "new Bf 109 G-4" for having no better climbing-ability then the Fw190/U7s. In this report Luftflottenkommado 3 filed a table with climbing-times "not showing the best possible times, but the times flown by fighter-formations in real action". A hint, that Lfl.Kdo. 3 (sometimes)used mixed formations.

From a combat report of II./JG 11 dated 28. Sept. 1943, printed in Prien/Rodeikes JG 11 chronicle page 463, we learn, that on this day II/JG 11 was flying a combat-formation with Stabsschwarm and 4th, 5th and 6th Staffeln. 5th Staffel was equipped with WGr. 21 underwing rockets. The performance of this a/c was much inferior to clean G-6 fighters, the difference being much greater than the difference between Fw190s and Bf109s. Nevertheless all Staffeln formed an unitary combat-formation.

Another report, Prien-Rodeike page 481, is even more interesting. On 4. Okt. 1943 II/JG 11 equipped with Bf 109 Gs formed an attack-formation together with JaSta Helgoland with Bf 109 Ts(!) and Fw 190s from "Gruppe Oldenburg". This day the Gefechtsverband included Bf 109G6s, Bf 109G-6/U4s, Bf 109G-6/WGr. 21, Bf 109Ts and Fw 190As of different types, all of this a/c with very different performances.

Combining all this with the frequent Allied reports of mixed formations I tend to believing, that mixed formations were not the first choice, but nevertheless quite common in 1943/44.

But as I already said: I have not been there - thanks God.

All the Best ;-)

Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Formation-flying
Mon Nov 18 09:23:00 2026
213.25.54.73

Carl
Very interesting reply but I still dissagree on some points. I don't think it would be possible to keep the Schwarm together which is essential if flying mixed a/c in combat conditions. Note that although general combat flying is not putting the performances to the extreme, the attack itself does. Separation at this crucial moment usually means death.
Concerning the quoted reports, all of them mention the minimal strenght of a Staffel of a single type, which is in an agreement with my previous posting.
And finally airmen reports - if they were unable to find the difference between Spitfire and Messerschmitt, how they could find one between Messer and Wuerger?
Cheers
Franek