National Archives (Public Record Office) - 3

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mario
Ju-52 shot down
Wed Oct 3 19:32:17 2001

On 04.12. 1943. one Ju-52 flying from Albania was shot down in region of Dubrovnik, Croatia. It was shot down by 7 fighters.36 aboard were killed. Can some one help to identified Ju-52 and fighters in thet case.
Thanks!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Günther Ott
Re: Ju-52 shot down
Wed Oct 3 22:12:56 2001


W.Nr. 3035 Ju 52/3m g6e (ATG-built, St.Kz. BR+AJ), G6+FH of 1./TG 4, was reportedly lost on 4.12.43 as crashed 6 kms North of Tirana.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mario
Re: Ju-52 shot down
Thu Oct 4 18:12:06 2001


Thanks a lot!
But is there any case of shooting down any Italian trimotors aeroplan under German pilots?
I ask this because this location is about 60-70 km from Tirana!!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Frank Olynyk
Ju-52, Dec 4, 1943
Thu Oct 4 05:14:14 2001


249 Squadron claimed a Ju-52 at 0940 hours, 2 m E of Berat A/D on Dec 4, 1943. The claim was shared between Fl/Lt John Beatson (RAAF), in Spit Vc JK465 coded GN-X, and F/Sgt Clive Fowler Jacobsen (RNZAF) in Spit Vc ES306 coded GN-T. Reference is to the ORB, and to a combat report in Air 50/96, frame 122 on the microfilm.

This is the only RAF claim for a Ju-52 on this date. There were no American fighter claims in the Mediterranean on this date.

Frank.

Civilization is the most fragile ecology of all.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

BBateman
KG51 missions early '45
Mon Oct 29 01:30:13 2001


Gentlemen,

I am wanting to know what solid resources would be recommended for clarifying missions flown by KG 51 in Feb/March of 1945. Preferrably I Gruppen and II Gruppen As I underdstand this time was hectic and some documentation lost, I need to be in the right direction as to events/dates as it is valuable to the current project I am working on.

Regards,
BB

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 03 December 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
nick@nblkp.free-online.co.uk
KG 51 in 1945
Mon Oct 29 21:20:12 2001


Are you asking about books or about doing your own research?

If it's books, then the Smith & Creek 4-volume history of the Me 262 from Classic seems the obvious choice. If it's archive sources that interest you then I can suggest some at the Public Record Office in London if you e-mail me.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
Stuka tank emblem
Tue Nov 13 19:05:07 2001


In Public Record Office file AIR37/1441 there is a photo of the RAF Museum's machine, RI+JK standing next in line behind a Bf 109G at Eggebek in May 1945. I only have a photocopy of this picture but it does not look as if the tank emblem is painted on the cowling.

Also the aircraft lacks the entire rear gun mounting. The Museum has replaced this missing part with what seems to be the single-gun mounting of a Ju 87B.

As far as I remember, the information about the plane in the Museum explains that it was converted at some time (by the Germans) but I can't recall the sub-type details now.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

frederik
FW190 losses 18 /9/1944
Sun Dec 16 10:24:23 2001


I have posted this before, but with little luck so far. Hoping that perhaps John Manrho can shed some light on this!

I am trying to identify the German unit (and names of pilots) involved in an air combat which took place North of Arnhem around 3pm (4pm German time)on September 18, 1944.

The 369th FS/ 359th FG (flying area support for Market Garden between Arnhem and Apeldoorn) encountered a ME 262 (probably KG51, on its way to bomb positions in the Neerpelt region), which was apparently accompanied by a bunch of FW 190's. In the ensuing dogfight with the FW190's, two P-51's (Lt. Sjobald and Lt. Deen), and two FW 190's (claimed by Lt. Parsons and Lt. Deen) were shot down.

From the 369th FS mission summary: “Blue and Red flight encountered a ME-262 at 15.00 coming from NE in their rear, same altitude 10,000 ft. Plane passed close by, they attempted to follow and Blue flight was almost immediately bounced by 35 gray coloured FW-190’s”

Parson's claim of a FW190 occurred at 15.20 hrs and "on the deck"; a parachute was seen to open at 300ft. The pilot probably survived the bail-out but may have died of wounds 2-3 days later.

Deen's combat dragged him eastward, away from Arnhem, and he was shot down near Krefeld, but not after bringing down a FW190 himself. He spent the remainder of the war as a POW

Can anybody shed any light on the FW190 unit and pilots involved? The locations do not seem to match with JG1 and JG 6 losses that day, could it possibly have been I./SKG10?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Could it have been I./SKG 10?
Sun Dec 16 19:00:02 2001


No, it couldn't. But it could have been III./KG 51 (as I./SKG 10 had been renamed several weeks earlier).

I could swear I posted this before when you raised the query (so much for technology or my memory!). File AIR20/7704 at the Public Record Office has a translation of Luftflotte 3's War Diary for September 1944. This says that on the 18th, 3 Me 262 of I./KG 51 and 12 Fw 190 of III./KG 51 attacked targets in the Neerpelt area.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

frederik
FW190 losses 18/9/44
Tue Dec 18 21:43:00 2001


Yes Nick, you had posted this before, and thanks for that.

I think the confusion comes from the actual date when I./SKG10 was renamed III./KG51. To quote from Tony Wood's website: "I./SKG10 operated under Stab/KG51, as III./KG51 from 30.6.44, but was not renamed III./KG51 until 20.10.44" . Regardless, I haven't found any losses for either III./KG51 or I./SKG10 on or around September 18th.

As for the attack by 3 ME262's and 12 FW190's on September 18th mentioned in Luftflotte 3's War Diary, isn't it more likely that these were separate attacks, i.e. wouldn't the ME262 and FW 190's fly in different formations to the target area (different cruising speeds and different staging airfields, Rheine and Köln-Ostheim? Hence the FW190's encountered by the 359th FG were probably from another unit.

But which unit?? FW-190 losses that I have for that day are from I./JG2, II. and III./JG6, I./JG11 and II./JG 26. By deduction it seems that JG 6, who lost Uffz Ristits of 8/JG6 at Krefeld, could be the unit involved. Any thoughts?

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Jukka Kauppinen
RAF night fighter claim 17.8.1944 night
Sun Dec 30 14:57:19 2001


A RAF night fighter shot down a German night fighter trainer airplane in the night of 16.8-17.8.1944, clock about 03.36.

The pilot of this shot down plane was a Finnish pilot, one of the course of Finnish Air Force pilots learning the trade of night fighters in Germany. Pilot name sergeant Bengt "Poli" Ringbom.

Plane was most likely one of the small trainers Luftwaffe used for night fighter basics. Plane was flying "Myo" training, whatever that is.

Two of the Finnish pilots wrote about that in their diary, short translation:

Pekka Helle:
"Saw a flash and then nothing. As boys returned down one by one we found out that one has come down and is burning. We found out it is Poli and next morning when we found plane we saw bullet holes in flaps and other parts that were left. A good boy - honor to his memory."

Olli Sarantola:
"We had regular break in night trainign because Myo. After it ended Poli was one of the first to take off and fell soon down burning. A likely expnalation is that a British Mosquito had stayed around after the night bombers left the area, while German night fighters were returning, and Poli was easy target as he had flying lights on after Myo had ended. Germans claimed that Poli came down because engine malfunction, but Masa Kalima who had checked the wreck said that he had seen 20mm bullet holes in the plane."

I believe that the Finnish pilots were stationed at Ludwigslust when this happened.

I wonder if there might be any information about this occasion from RAF side. Who shot mr. Ringbom down and so on.

About mr. Olli Sarantola and his adventure of the lifetime, night fighter training in Germany: http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/WW2History-OlliSarantolaEnglish.html

Thanks,

Jukka Kauppinen

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Frank Olynyk
August 17, 1944
Sun Dec 30 16:31:22 2001


The only British claim I have that would seem to match, is at 0240 hours (British time), a Ju-88, location given as Ringkjobing Fjord area (I have no idea where that is). The crew was W/O E A Lampkin + F/Sgt B J Wallnutt (radar op). They were in a Mosquito VI HR213, "G". I do not have a reference for a combat report; possibly this is among the Bomber Command combat reports that I have not looked at. Most of the combat reports for 141 Squadron are not among the Fighter Command reports in Air 50. This is apparently the only claim by these two.

The previous claim by the RAF is a Ju-88 at 2250 the previous day; the next claim is at 0329, another Ju-88 6 m WSW of Bretigny.

Frank.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
He 162 with JV 44
Sat Jan 5 16:29:12 2002


A single He 162 was among the aircraft detected during a photo-reconnaissance of München-Riem on 25 April 1945 and one was seen at Salzburg and another at Lechfeld on the same day.

Source: PRO file AIR23/8289 "MASAF Intops Summaries March–April 1945 and 1st–4th May 1945"

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

willaume
about the (Fw 190) A9 and bmw 801 E/F
Mon Jan 7 14:24:47 2002


As far as i can tell from the few documents on the A 10 i have seen
the difference were reinforced landing gear, Bmw801 F, an hydrolic system (I strongly suspect that it was for the aileron as the german found from captured plane, that it was a good idea)
blown canopy and the improved head armor that comes with it.
I beleive that the wing was to be larger that the A8-A9.

on the A9 and the bmw 801 TS/TH (bmw 801 S/E)
the PRO (AIR 40/55) has a doccument, from late 44, explainning the difference between the two.
It is quite clear that both have a fan with 12 blade and a modified exhaust pipes.
They both come with the 10 mil cowling rings.
However the bmw 801 F (BMW 801 TF) had 14 blades fan. (The BMW801 F is called TH is all the 43 documents i have seen.)
In anycase from interview of BMW enginers it seems that BMW 801 F was never produced in series. From what i have understood the modification where introduced in the TS/TH chain.

this is the output at see level
BM801 D2 1780 ps (1.42 ATA) circa 2000 (1.65 ata) with the bleeding of the airline (serialised in june 44)

BMW801 Q (TU) no data so far probably close to the TS under 6000 m and close to the D.
the bleeding of the airline was serialised

BMW 801 S (TS)
2000 ps (1.65 ATA) around 2200 with the bleeding of the airline (alledgedly installed in january 45)

the Q and the S are basically d engines with F components.
Installing MW50, according to a document from jan 45, was difficult on the D,S,Q. but easier on the E/F.

BMW 801 E (TH)
2000 ps (1.65 ATA) almost all new components.
the bledding of the airline was to be serialised in march 45. Mw50 was tested and possible to install)

BMW 801 F (TF)
2100 ps 1.75 ATA. (that is without any airline bleeding or mw50
2400 ps with mw50.


i hope it helps

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Robert Inkol
Re: about the (Fw 190) A9 and bmw 801 E/F
Tue Jan 8 00:49:44 2002


This is interesting, but I am confused as to what is meant by "bleeding the airline". Also, I would like to know more about your reference (Air40/55).

Also, I think the hydraulic system was mainly for the undercarriage (previous FW 190s having used electrical operation. I think the TA 152 had also switched to hydraulics.

Thanks
Robert Inkol

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
Re: about the (Fw 190) A9 and bmw 801 E/F
Tue Jan 8 11:12:03 2002


AIR 40/55 is the Public office record reference of the folder containing the greman documents i am refering too.

about the hydraulic,it is possible
If it helps there was supposed to a be a hydraulics in the fuselage and in the wings so...

bleeding of the air line refers to the boost system used on the FW190 A and D series (laderdruckhohung for the D series)

the idea is to create a depression in the airline to the engine so that it forces the butterflies of the trottle to open wider.
the extra fuell is used as an expendable intercooler.
(the ata rose from 1.42 ro 1.65 for the A series)

this solution was prefered to the usage of the MW50 on the bmw801 D,Q,S because of technical difficulties to control mw50 on those engines(the bmw801 E and F seems to have been ok) and the fact that the usage of petrol would cancel the need of an extral fuel tank and alimenation system.

[Richard T Eger]

Rob Davis has provided a webpage on Tracing and Finding Former Aircrew; Researching an Operational History. As part of this, he provides some very useful guidance to researching at the PRO. The web page address is:

http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/raf_bc/finding.html


Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Giuseppe Finizio
Luftwaffe Attack against Bari Harbour,Italy,2 Dec.
Sat Jan 26 16:51:17 2002
192.92.126.137

I am researching the Luftwaffe attack against Bari harbour,2 Dec. 1943.On that day a total of 88 (?) Ju-88 bombers from KG 26,30,54,76,77,100 and LG 1 headed towards Bari using 'Dueppel' to confuse Allied radar, and flying low to escape early detection.The raid that followed just after dark was to result in the worst shipping disaster since Pearl Harbour (17 ships lost and 8 damaged).Can anyone help me to find useful sources dealing with the planning of the Luftwaffe raid,the units involved,the aircraft and so on ? Thanks again.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard Byrd
Participating units
Sun Jan 27 02:14:48 2002
65.35.27.74

I always found it strange that it took 7 Kampfgeschwader to come up with a force of just 88 bombers. I know that the LW units were often understrength, but this seems too much even so.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Bari: Participating Units
Sun Jan 27 18:13:28 2002
212.159.1.5

According to Public Record Office file AIR40/2253 "Air Intelligence (ACP) Periodical Reports, RAF Wireless Int. Service French North Africa (Wing 329)" the units involved in the attack and their bases were:

I./KG 30 Ghedi
II./KG 30 Villafranca di Verona
I./KG 54 Cameri
II./KG 54 Bergamo
I./KG 76 Villaorba
II./KG 76 Aviano

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard Byrd
That makes more sense
Sun Jan 27 19:10:05 2002
65.35.27.74

Six participating gruppen therefore came up with an average 15 aircraft each. That seems like a reasonable level of participation. Aren't there German language histories of KG 54 and KG 76 that might fill in more of this recurring question? Is someone perhaps familiar with this material?

BTW, thanks for this useful narrowing of the field.

[Richard T Eger]

From further down the thread on TOCH!:

Giuseppe Finizio
Re: Bundesarchiv
Mon Jan 28 19:51:15 2002
192.92.126.137

Thanks again for the useful information and congratulations for GHOST BOMBERS I have just read with great pleasure.As I wish to get copied the relevant parts of AIR40/2253 can you better specify the date of the Air Intelligence Report on the Bari attack ? In The Enemy is Listening by Aileen Clayton (p.314) I read that "A total of 105 aircraft were involved, comprising elements of KG 26 and KG 100 brought over from their southern France bases, and others from KG 30,54,76 and 77 ...and LG1 from Greek airfields".What do you think about this evidence from an Y-Service officer ? Last but not least,I am researching a single aircraft bombing of Parma,Po Valley,in the night of 24/25 August 1944.I was not be able to find any Allied aircraft flying over Parma that night.What do you think about a German provocation (someone remember that one Ju-87 of 3.Staffel NSG 9 took off from Vigatto,south of Parma,that night) ?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Bari and Parma
Tue Jan 29 19:03:10 2002
212.159.1.5

The information I quoted is probably from a monthly report for December 1943. I can’t be more specific since it is almost four years since I made my notes from this file.

A comparison with Aileen Clayton’s book? What I have quoted is Y-Service data from the time of the attack (No. 329 Wing was a signals intelligence unit). Clayton wrote her book many years after the war and I don’t know what archive material she consulted (the Air Ministry Weekly Intelligence Summaries, perhaps?) and how far she relied on memory. If forced to choose, I would prefer the wartime data but even then I would like to have corroboration from other contemporary sources if possible.


Thank you for your kind comments about “Ghost Bombers.” I'm glad you enkoyed it. Both I and Christian Möller saw your letter to Jet&Prop about the bombing of the church in Parma. I am extremely doubtful that NSG 9 was involved in any way. You will have seen from “Ghost Bombers” that the men of this unit enjoyed excellent relations with Italian civilians and one of the veterans has assured Christian that they did not make this attack.

There would be no value in such a move. There was quite enough "collateral damage" from real Allied attacks to make propaganda with. If the Germans did it, why only make a small hole in the roof with a bomb when using incendiaries to start a large fire would have provided much better propaganda pictures?

I have not visited the Parma area but would surprised that a witness could find somewhere giving a clear view of the entire 10km from the Cavriago II airstrip to the city of Parma on a night when even a half-moon was still 3 days away.

Maybe a plane took off (my book mentions a single practice flight), maybe some bombs fell a little while later but the two were not necessarily connected.

To check for Allied operations you would need the daily Operations/Intelligence report from Public Record Office file AIR40/2155 that covers the night in question. If a unit is mentioned as attacking Parma, you could then follow up in its Operations Record Book (if it was an RAF unit).

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Giuseppe Finizio
Re: Bari and Parma
Tue Jan 29 19:25:26 2002
192.92.126.137

Thank you for your intersting opinions. Anyway,I never wrote any letter to JET&PRO. Please,be more explicit.