ULTRA - 3

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

wim de meester
LW losses night 22/23 January 1945
Mon Dec 2 15:26:32 2002
62.131.186.147

According to the war diaries of 2TAF and 105 AA-Brigade on the night from 22 to 23rd.January 1945 the allied defences at and on the river Scheldt claimed 3 victories over their attackers believed to be Ju 88.
Who knows more about these claims?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Manrho
Probably Ju 88's of LG 1 on a minelaying sortie (n/t)
Mon Dec 2 17:37:38 2002
213.75.77.65

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Minelaying
Tue Dec 3 22:57:51 2002
212.159.57.155

The minelaying is definite, also I. and II./LG 1's involvement. There's an Ultra message (which I can't find right now, inevitably) giving orders for the mission.

The picture is a bit more complicated than other posts have maybe suggested.

therewas an attack on a convoy on the night 22/23 January; a single Ju 88 was shot down over Ostende the following morning and then there was the minelaying operation on the evening of the 23rd. I./KG 66 provided pathfinders and one of these was shot down by Flak; another Ju 88 was shot down by a Mosquito and a Ju 188 of 4./KG 200 was also shot down by a Mosquito (I wrote an article about the latter for Aviation News in 1989)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Ultra about 23 January 1945
Tue Dec 3 23:03:51 2002
212.159.57.155

So I post my response nad a minute later I find the Ultra message:

BT 3256: "At 13.30 hours 23rd, Jagdkorps II orders for night 23rd/24th: LG 1 with subordinated I./KG 66 to carry out "undertaking Conway" if weather suitable, in first half of night"

The reference to "Undertaking Conway" bit means the mission was called "Unternehmen" something -"Conway" was substituted for the German codename as a security measure. This was a habit in Ultra material.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles bvaroise
Losses 22/23 Jan 1945
Tue Dec 3 10:24:15 2002
212.34.74.75

John Manrho's guess seems to be fitting:

I./LG 1 lost 3 Ju 88 A4s this night missing at the "Scheldemündung"

WNr. 301.348, crew of Hptm Hecking Paul, Kommandeur, MIA
WNr. 550.841, crew of Ofw Helbig Herbert, MIA
WNr. 142.184, crew of Ofw Alt Andreas, MIA.

Source is GQM-reports.

HTH

Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

wim de meester
say thanks
Tue Dec 3 12:48:28 2002
62.131.186.147

thanks to all for the replies (Carl, is it possible to provide the names of the crew members?)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Scheldt Missions
Tue Dec 3 23:29:34 2002
64.12.96.11

Here's an abbreviated summary of these losses, much of this taken from Nick Beale's fine article from 13 years ago:

I./KG 66 - 23 Jan 45: flew a flare-dropping mission over the Scheldt estuary for bombers from LG 1, losing Ju 88S-3 (Z6+FH) to AA-fire near Aalst/Belgium.
I./LG 1 - 23 Jan 45: flew an aerial mining mission over the Scheldt estuary losing 3 Ju 88S-3s (L1+GK,KL,NL) and the Gruppe’s Kommandeur, Hptm. Hecking, and all three crews to AA fire; this was I./LG 1’s last operation over the Scheldt area.
II./LG 1 - 22 Jan 45: 2 Ju 88A-4s FTR from night mine-laying operations over the Schelde estuary, 8 MIA.
23 Jan 45: Ju 88A-4 (L1+FN) and Ju 88S-3 (L1+NP) FTR from night mine-laying mission to the Schelde estuary, 8 MIA.

HTH,

Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
"KG(J) 51"
Sat Apr 5 08:40:54 2003
212.159.51.206

It's just one of those bits of (apparently) unthinking repetition that I find quite irrationally annoying!

I think that the first time I saw mention of "KG(J) 51" was in Werner Girbig's "Six Months To Oblivion" and most recently in "Luftwaffe Over Czech Territory 1945."

All this would be fine if I'd ever seen a wartime document that ever called KG 51 anything other than plain old KG 51. I just don't know of any evidence that it was redesignated as a fighter unit. Its Me 262s were bombers from first to last, as far as I can ascertain and all the sources seem to reflect that. It may be KG 51's eventual attachment to IX. Fliegerkorps that's behind it - an assumption that all the Korps' units automatically had KG(J) status.

From two extremes of the unit's jet era, take ULTRA signals XL 9914 (September 1944)

"… Ops Detachment KG 51 afternoon 11th: 9(8) aircraft and 6(4) crews."

And KO 1808:

"IX. Fl.Kps informed 2100 hrs that eight a/c of I./KG 51 and nine a/c of JV 44 landed at Prague-Rusin."

That one's from 29 April 1945 and if they hadn't changed the name by then, I doubt they were ever going to!

If anyone has contemporary evidence to the contrary then I'll stand corrected of course.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
UXB's on TV
Wed Apr 16 23:46:11 2003
212.159.48.239

As well as the long-ago drama - which I no longer remember much about - you might want to look for the VHS/DVD of a more recent series (in the last couple of years) that Channel 4 did in the UK. IIRC It also had "UXB" in the title but this one was a documentary. several veterans from bomb disposal units were interviewed.

One episode gave extensive coverage to the SD2 raid on Grimsby and the problems it posed.

(Another Channel 4 series worth getting is "Station X" on the breaking of the Enigma ciphers)

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
Bf 109 night attack operations
Fri May 9 18:42:29 2003
212.159.50.174

Bf 109s were used in night attack.

From Ultra KO 2000:

"(Fair indications Fl.Div. 14) ops night 2nd–3rd [May 1945]: Bombing and aircraft armament attack at half light by 16 Fw 190 and 6 Me 109 against supply traffic, troop concentrations and camps in area Lauenburg (S.83), Schwarzenbeck (S.84), Oldesloe (S.78), Lübeck (S.98) and Ratzeburg (T.07). Observation of results not possible owing bad visibility. 3 aircraft missing."

Ultra KO 2010 adds:

"... (2) Operations carried out (comment: further to KO 2000): (a) NSG 20, twilight attack with 16 Fw 190 and 6 Me 109. 3 Fw 190 missing. (b) 7./NJG 11, 10 Me 109 in aircraft armament attacks on supply traffic,troop concentrations and bivouacs. After operations, aircraft (fair indications employed) transferred to Leck, 1 Me 109 landed in Schleswig."

Remember that all Luftwaffe fighter aircraft had for some time been required to have bombing capability. As for why they were used: desperation would be one explanation.

NJG units had used twin-engined night fighters for night ground attack operations in august 1944 in Normandy, in the Ardennes and during the Allied advance into Germany.

As for the "numerous real attack groups" you refer to, there were only four regularly operating against the western Allies: NSG 1, 2 and 20 plus III./KG 200. Elements of SG 151 were also involved toward the end and by the time NSG 8 arrived in north Germany from Norway, the east/west distinction was pretty near meaningless as German held territory had shrunk so much.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

David E. Brown
Me 262 A-2a “9K+YH”, WNr.170???, 1./KG 51
Thu Jul 24 21:09:32 2003
142.176.155.197

Below is a copy of a response I provide to a similar question last June. It may be of use in determining the scheme for this aircraft.

While I have a different interpretation of the upper surface colour Steve, I do agree with your last comments.

Cheers,

David



Me 262 A-2a “9K+YH”, WNr.170???, 1./KG 51

D.E. Brown, June 2002

There is a series of 6 or so photos of the aircraft taken from all sides that appears near the end of Classic’s book on the Me 262 Volume 2. The photos appear to have been taken in March 1945 based on the vegetation, light angle, etc. I think that they have also been previous published in various books but not all in one book.

KG 51 had a great number of Me 262s operational from the summer of 1944. It was the preferred destination for the Me 262 as this was a bomber unit (Kommando Schenk – KG 51) and so had the highest priority for the new jets. A great number of these came from the front end of the 170000 Werknummerseries as can be noted in Dan O’Connell’s Werknummerlist on the Stormbirds site (www.stormbirds.com). Indeed, a close examination of one of the Classic photos shows a Werknummer in the same size, style and position as other 170000-series aircraft on the aircraft’s starboard fin. While it is not readable, the Werknummer position and style, layout of the underlying faded two-tone camouflage scheme and its grey tone in the images, the style of national and unit code markings together suggest that it was an early production 170000 Werknummerseries aircraft originally painted in the grey 74/75/76 scheme prior to the introduction of the late-war ‘green/brown’ colours in July 1944.

Having survived into 1945, “White Y” was given an overall (top and sides) meandering and dotted overspray of probably 81 Braunviolett to tone down the rather light grey appearance. This scheme and colour was applied to many nightfighters (Ju 88 G-1/6, Bf 110 G-4 and a few Me 262 B-1a’s) during the last months of the war to help conceal them on the ground. Colour photos of such aircraft reveal that the choice colour was invariably 81. The camouflage pattern is indicative of the type applied at the unit level. It is highly probably that the colour 81 would also appear on the wing upper surfaces in a similar pattern to that on the fuselage sides and top. This dark over light 81/74/75 pattern and scheme would certainly afford significant concealment value for the late winter conditions (dominantly bare deciduous trees, snow-covered ground, etc).

It is instructive to note that photos of other KG 54 aircraft during the same period wore a reverse pattern (light over dark) on all upper surfaces. The application of a white welle/mäander (wave/meander) pattern was necessitated by the original darker all-green 83 or 81/82 upper surface scheme.

END

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
KG 51
Sat Jul 26 09:45:24 2003
80.225.118.89

Perhaps off the main point but Kommando Schenk doesn't seem to have had that many aircraft at any given time judging by intercepted strength returns, e.g.

On the afternoon of 11 September 1944 "Ops Detachment KG 51" had 9(8) aircraft and 6(4) crews (source: ULTRA XL 9914)

This doesn't contradict David's point about KG 51 having priority but it looks like even that didn't always get you the planes you needed.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Edwards
Dortmund Airfield
Wed Jul 30 00:27:29 2003
195.93.50.9

Dortmund airfield or Richthofen Kaserne has it became during WW2. Has anybody got any further information, photos?

I'm trying to gather as much of an history of the site from being an airport, Luftwaffe airbase, to becoming Napier Barracks occupied by BAOR and finally to it's demise. Whereupon it lays derelict awaiting Borussia Dortmund Football team to move in?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Fl.Pl. Dortmund and ULTRA
Wed Jul 30 14:55:59 2003
198.26.120.13

Nick,

I believe that if you're serious about compiling the history of Luftwaffe basing at Dortmund, you will find rewards in ULTRA: Main Series of Signals Conveying Intelligence, etc. (PRO DEFE series) from about September-October 1944 onwards. Here and there in the messages there appear daily reports of units and aircraft counts on the field, and so forth. I haven't looked at this material in several months and even when doing so, I wasn't focussed
on interests like yours, but I do seem to remember there's at least some information in ULTRA. Nick Beale may chime in on this, his exploration of ULTRA and his memory are really helpful in areas like this.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Juergen
Dortmund airfield
Fri Aug 1 22:52:51 2003
217.84.13.157

Hello Nick,

there is already someone working on a book about Dortmund a/f, particularly its German night fighter activities. Pass me over your e-mail address, I will have a look if this hobby colleague is interested in any cooperation.

Regards, Jürgen

[Richard T Eger]

The Post-war military aviation, by Vic Flintham, while dealing primarily with post-war activities, does have one section relating of WW II interest. Website address is:

http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk/index.htm

The section of interest, Enigma, Lorenz, Ultra and Dollis Hill, is at:

http://www.gsansom.demon.co.uk/vfaero/enigma/bombraid.htm

Sub-sections are:

Introduction - Discusses Enigma, Lorenz, Colossus, and the Luftwaffe raid on 18/19 February 1944 during Operation Steinbock. Photos show Enigma, Lorenz, and Colossus machines.

The Steinbock raids - the 'Baby Blitz' - Includes a table listing the Luftwaffe order of battle within Luftflotte 3 (Fliegerkorps IX) at 20 January 1944.

Air defences - Includes tables listing units defending the British homeland, Mosquito intruder squadrons, and other fighter units.

The raids (1944) - Presents a chronology of the raids, with special emphasis given to the raid on Dollis Hill. Total Luftwaffe losses for the months of Jan. to May 1944 are given.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

dire
Sardinia April 1943
Sun Jan 4 10:28:25 2004
62.158.82.60

I already posted this question some time ago without any major success. Please excuse me bugging you once again.
In the course of my research concerning my dad’s war time career I’ve been trying to figure out what unit did II./KG.zbV.1 (II/TG.1) transfer from A/F Grosseto (Italy) to A/F Milis (Sardinia) on April 16, 1943. Another mission was flown from A/F Naples (Italy) on April 17 with the same destination. It’s even unknown whether they transferred infantry or personnel of a Luftwaffe unit.
In his field letters written a few days prior this sortie dad mentions “personnel of StG 77” to be picked up at A/F Würzburg (Germany) “bound for the south”. I do have a second source also claiming “personnel of StG 77”. As a matter of fact on its flight Germany-Italy II./KG.zbV.1 DID NOT quick stop at A/F Würzburg but went straight south to A/F Grosseto where from they flew a few missions into Sardinia.

All this is quite confusing and unfortunately dad can’t remember – 60 years later!

Any Sardinia buff out there ?

Regards,
dire

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Sardinian Airlift - April 1943
Sun Jan 4 18:23:20 2004
205.188.208.166

If there is any documentary evidence available today detailing Luftwaffe airlift activity in the Med in April 1943, it will doubtless be found in ULTRA: Main Series of Signals Conveying Intelligence to Allied Commands in the Field. Originals in PRO DEFE series, reproduced on microfilm by Clearwater Publications ca. 1980. The Luftwaffe material dealing with the retreat from North Africa and with Sardinia is very dense during April 1943. No guarantees about what you're looking for but possible.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Re: Sardinian Airlift - April 1943
Tue Jan 6 08:13:36 2004
217.1.4.125

Rabe, thanks for your reply. But WHERE would I find that source ?

dire

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
ULTRA and Sardinian Airlift
Tue Jan 6 11:49:31 2004
205.188.208.166

Hi!

Well, you know, it's a frustrating situation with the ULTRA materials because accessibility is so limited.

The original ULTRA messages to Allied field commands are in the Public Record Office, Kew, England, in the DEFE series.
Clearwater Publishing of New York (now defunct) microfilmed the messages in two series ca. 1979-1980. The spring 1943 material is contained in 39 rolls in Series II (of which some, mysteriously, are duplicates). A librarian can help you search for holdings in the States (there are only three, I'm told).

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

From TOCH!:

dire
Re: ULTRA and Sardinian Airlift
Tue Jan 6 14:31:08 2004
217.1.4.60

> Well, you know, it's a frustrating situation with the
> ULTRA materials because accessibility is so limited.

Ooops! That's what I thought. Honestly speaking I'd say, regarding the minor importance of this detail in my research I'm afraid it wouldn't be worth it to start such a hassle out of Germany... Guess, I'll have to wait till an Italian expert dealing with the war-time history of his island will solve the mystery.

Alora, italani - dovè siete ?

Dear friend, thank you anyway.

dire

PS: Feel like we were been in touch long time ago over another issue but can't remember what it was. Take care.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andrew Arthy
Loss of FW 190 A-5 W.Nr 2535
Tue Jun 1, 2004 04:46
129.180.1.124

Does anyone have information about the loss of FW 190 A-5 W.Nr 2535? The aircraft was apparently from III./K.G. 101. The loss would have occrred around 2 June 1943.

I'm interested in other FW 190 losses for this Gruppe in late-May/early-June 1943.

TIA

Cheers,
Andrew A.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Loss of FW 190 A-5 W.Nr 2535
Tue Jun 1, 2004 14:54
64.223.199.2

Fw190A-5 2535 Kurth, Uffz. Karl-Heinz 1. JG 2 15-Jun-43 WIA in Luftkampf. Notlandung. Loss report says WNr. 2355. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18; Ring, JG 2 loss list, p.12 Fl.Pl. Bernay 30% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrew Arthy
Re: Loss of FW 190 A-5 W.Nr 2535
Wed Jun 2, 2004 16:01
129.180.1.144

Hi Jim,

Thanks for this loss, but it doesn't seem to be 'my' aircraft. The loss report is probably correct that Uffz. Kurth was flying W.Nr 2355, rather than W.Nr 2535.

My source is an ULTRA signal from 3 June 1943, and in summary it says:

Return from III./K.G. 101 includes 1 FW 190 crashed. Return includes note that FW 190 A-5 W.Nr 2535 (5T + DR) was given as off strength on 02.06.43 for the second time.

In a signal from a day later, it notes that two FW 190s of III./K.G. 101 had suffered ten per cent damage in crashes, one FW 190 had received five per cent damage in a crash, and one FW 190 had crashed and suffered an unknown amount of damage. One FW 190 had been ferried to a detachment at St. Andrea for repair, and another had landed at an airfield called Beau's [or something similar to this].

An earlier signal from 29 May 1943 noted that one III./K.G. 101 FW 190 had crashed.

If anyone has some more information about this unit's FW 190s, particularly loss data, I'd like to hear from them.

Cheers,
Andrew A.