WWII Air War over the North discussion forum, by Andreas Brekken

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andy Fletcher
Heinrich Ehrler
Thu Dec 19 14:24:43 2002
12.151.162.12


Hi Guys,

Can anyone fill in the following gaps in Heinrich Ehrlers career.

1. Between what dates was he Staffelkapitan (StK) 6/JG5 (21/8/42-?).

2. Between what dates was he StK 7/JG5 (?-6/43)

Regards

Andy Fletcher

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bobbie
Ehrler
Sun Dec 22 21:15:49 2002
64.12.97.12

Hi Andy:

Have you checked out WWII Air War Over the North Web Forum Board? You have to get registered but the guys that post there know all about JG5 and are probably the most informed on anything regarding them. You can read the posts without getting logged in but if you want to post then you need to register. As a matter of fact, Kjetil got Ehrler's records from the BundesArchiv so he should have your exact answer.

Goood Luck!
Bobbie

[Richard T Eger]

The WWII Air War over the North discussion forum appears to be specific to the air war over Scandinavia. The forum address is:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/bwwiiairwaroverthenorth

Categories currently listed are:

Announcements
WW II over the North
Luftwaffe Units
Allied & Soviet Union Units
IPMS Norway Luftwaffe SIG
Virtual Airwar over the North
Debriefing

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
andrebre@online.no
Bf 109 Stkz
Tue Jul 15 13:06:29 2003
80.212.199.230

Hi!

Resources on Bf 109 Stkz wanted for crosscheck of list from northern front.

Pls email me off board.

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Willis
Bf 109 Stkz
Tue Jul 15 14:48:13 2003
62.30.239.58

Hi Andreas

I have very extended Bf 109 Stkz files so please contact me with the relevant info and I will get back to you.


Regards


Tom Willis

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Ongoing discussion at:
Wed Jul 16 12:17:07 2003
80.213.0.48

http://pub95.ezboard.com/bwwiiairwaroverthenorth

Pls review the issue in the Messerschmitt Bf 109 forum.

Online chat available! Would be nice to chat with some of You guys from time to time!

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mark Sheppard
RLm79 tan with JG5
Wed Aug 6 13:50:53 2003
62.241.191.8

Hi all

Something that has been discussed before, but no 100% firm evidence whether it occured or not.

JG5 recieved numerous F-4s and G-2's which were tropical varients painted RLM79 and RLM78 underside. A number have been recovered seeming showing the RLM79 on the aircraft.

As discussed previously, I have been informed by Finnish researches that the sand colour does not exist within the Arctic Circle. I have been told that everything is grey of one shade or another.

There are a number of photos of F-4 sat Pori with a two tone upper camouflage colour with the demarkation line as that of the RLM 78/RLM79. It now seems likley this 'field applied'? colour was 2 shades of grey.

How likely is it that RLM79 might have been carried by aircraft or JG5 and was still visible within one scheme or another? I researched F-4 10132 and at the time thought the upper colours were RLM79 with a grey.

I see that in 'Luftwaffe in Focus No 2' Dobrichs 'Yellow 10' of 6./JG5 shows the RLM79 through the winter camouflage.

I doubt there is any way of proving conclusively one way or another.

regards

MS

PS. A have seen II/JG5 Gruppenkommandeur Horst Carganico's F-4 rudder and this was painted white. Was this also unusual also.

[Richard T Eger]

From further within the thread on TOCH!:

Kjetil Aakra
kjetil.aakra@midt-troms.museum.no
Desert tan JG 5 109s
Fri Aug 8 14:41:20 2003
130.67.171.64

Very interesting question which I have been studying in some detail lately.

Here are my line of reasoning:

The camouflage pattern of at least some of the Bf 109F-4s delievered to JG 5 in May 1942 is definitely non-standard as the two upper-surface colours are solid (not mottled towards the bottom) and extends further down the fuselage sides than is "normal". Examples of this is W. Nr. 10173, CI+MM and VE+TU (possible W. Nr. 7534). These two planes were photographed at Feldflugplatz Pori and show the two-segmented pattern well (VE+UT even from both sides!).

Furthermore, on VE+TU the white fuselage band is still present while it has been painted over on CI+MM. This is important as it indicates that remannts of its indented service are (the Mediterranean theathre of operations) still present. Along with the unusual camouflage pattern, which is consistent with a overall-desert tan 109 having been repainted with the addition of a second darker upper-surface colour), this indicates in my view that these planes were finished with RLM 79 (or an Italaina equivsalent).

The nature of the second upper-sruface colour is of course open to speculation. I would however, suggest that it is RLM 70 or a similar dark-green. This is based on careful study of Rudi Müller's Yellow 3 (W. Nr. 10073) of which I have acess to soem really high quality unpublished shots which details not normally visible. The darker colour is too dark to be RLM 74 and is very similar to that seen on e.g. bombers and transports.

This is not to say that these desert tan JG 5 109s (mosttly seen in service with 6./JG 5) did not carry other colours than 70/70 on their upper surface areas. Some clearly had three upper-surface colurs (like Hans Döbrich's Yellow 10), Yellow 9 (unknown W. Nr.) and some others. On Müller's 10073 one particularily clear photograph of the nose and cockpit aree reveals that there actually seems to be two colours in addition to the dark green. This is possible RLM 75 sprayed over RLM 79. What is interwsting is that in greyscale images and blakc-and-white photographs these two colours (i.e. RLM 75 and 79) have virtually the same tonal strength and are next to impossible to differentiate on lower-quality shots.

Regarding the subtypes of F-4 delivered to JG 5 which were finished in desert tan, they were probably
mostly of the last production-block(10xxx series) manufactured by Erla between january and May 1942. These were, according to Prien & Rodeike, F-4/trops, which is another indication that they were delivered in a desert tan scheme. Remember that I./JG 3 received F-4/trops from the same block and these were painted up in that Grupppes characteristic camouflage pattern in which substanTial portions of RLM 79 were retained (whic makes more sense over southern Rusia, I admit, but deseert-tan on 109s over the arctic during the summer is not inconceiveble).

It is also worth noting that one of Marseilles 109s, W. Nr. 10059, was finished in solid 79 over 78 (not 78 on fuselage sides, I think) which is very similar to Müller's 10073, except for the addition of dark colour in the latter case, of course.

Yet another indication comes from the fact that on one F-4/trop, Yellow 10 flown by Hans Döbrich, the fuslage frame numbers were retained, indicating that the lower surface colour was original (i.e. RLM 78). Close scrutiny of photographs have also revealed that this machine has a lighter respray beneath the "10" which could be RLM 76 (stocks of which would be available to JG 5) and there is also substantial repainting behind the fuselage Balkenkreuz. Interestingly, on the bottom surface of the fuselage behind the Balkenkreuz, the white Mediterranean band can still be seen!

All in all, these are not conclusive evidences of course, but in my view, they at least open up the possibillity that
JG 5 and particularily 6. Staffel, did use F-4s whcih were partially finished in RLM 79 desert tan.

I have made profiles of several of these aircraft and discussed the issue in more detail at the Airwar over the North Forum. I hope you guys can take a look at them and give me your views as I am anxious to get more information on this interesting problem.

The discussion Group may be found here:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/bwwiiairwaroverthenorth

The profiles may be found here:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11

Disussion of VE+TU:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=5 0.topic

Rudolf Müller's Yellow 3:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=5 8.topic

Hhans Döbrich's Yellow 10:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=5 6.topic

Horst Carganico's Doppelwinkel, W. Nr. 101312:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=5 5.topic

Heinrich Erhler's Yellow 12:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=5 1.topic

Rudolf Lüder's Winkel:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=5 2.topic

How Döbrich's last G-2 may have been repainted:

http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwiiairwaroverthenorthfrm11.showMessage?topicID=4 9.topic

Sincerely,

Kjetil Aakra

[Richard T Eger]

It looks like the URL to this site has changed:

http://p219.ezboard.com/bwwiiairwaroverthenorth

Regards,
Richard