BA/MA - Freiburg - 12

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Don Caldwell
Looking for a General der Jagdflieger document
Wed Jan 15 15:23:29 2003
204.136.184.34

Can anyone out there provide me with a copy of GdJ document 582/42 (16 Apr 42), which apparently authorized a lowering of the standards for Eastern Front claims submissions? It was apparently saved by JG 54, and in all probability can be found in the JG 54 file at the BA-MA. Rabe, how about it?

Horrido!

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
GdJ 16.4.1942
Fri Jan 17 19:02:05 2003
62.245.163.153

Don

General der Jagdflieger did not lower the standard for Abschüsse on the Ostfront, quite contrary:

GdJ complains about a diffent practice at the units and clarifies the circumstances for proper claiming an Abschuss. The standards for allowing an Abschuß were not lowered, superiors were prompted to stick to the rules to avoid any false claims. The document was not adressed to Ostfront Geschwader alone, it is only due to coincidence, that the copy of 8./JG 54 survived at Freiburg Militärarchiv.

HTH

Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
This shows this forum at its best! thx (n/t)
Fri Jan 17 21:28:10 2003
204.136.184.34

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mark Smith
Sicily Records
Thu Jan 16 00:16:32 2003
194.185.115.226

Could anyone help me find some WWII records from Sicily (primarily western Sicily).

I am searching for:

1)German and Italian records of allied planes being shot down over western Sicily by German and Italian flak units (time, location, type of plane) during June and July 1943.

2) German records of JG 77 shooting down allied planes over western Sicily during June and July 1943 (time, location, type of plane).

3)The name and microfiche location of Sicilian newspapers that were published in June and July of 1943 (western Sicily) that might describe incidents when allied planes were shot down.

My uncle was shot down over Sicily during WWII. He was reported missing in action and never found. I have searched some American records but am hoping
records from German or Italian luftwaffe or flak units will be especially helpful.

Thank you.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Sicily Records
Fri Jan 17 17:50:49 2003
12.106.99.68

Mark-

There is a four volume series written by Jochen Prien on Jagdgeschwader 77. These volumes cover all victories (all known victories)recorded by JG 77, and include pilot responsible for claim, aircraft type and approx. vicinity/local of claim. In addition, daily write ups of actions sometimes include additional info.. Word of note, to date these books are "alles Deutsch" so put on your best German translation hat. As for flak units claims, good luck. I personally have some flak unit claims (original) from France 1940 which are quite descriptive as to the type of info. you are seeking for Sicily. Regrettably I don't think many of them survived the war let alone got written up in such detail.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Flak Claims - Sicily (Jun - Jul 43)
Fri Jan 17 21:08:06 2003
152.163.188.68

These are all tabulated by date and unit in the so-called "Claims Microfilms", these being the same microfilms used by Tony Woods for the fighter claims he has extracted and posted on his website. The tabulations give the date, location, type of enemy aircraft claimed and the Flak-Abteilung or -Batterie making the claim. The full Flak-Abschüßemeldungen (detailed reports for these Flak claims) can be found in a collection of 506 folders in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg im Breisgau under Signatur RL 5. I don't know how this large collection is organized, but it's probably either by Flak unit or date. These reports provide considerable detail for each claim made.

L.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jeremy G
Sicily Records
Fri Jan 17 18:30:36 2003
12.106.99.68

Mark-

Probably should have included this info. as well.Check out the site below, in particualar the fighter claims compiled by Tony Wood.

Cheers

http://www.ww2.dk/

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark
Flak Claims and Sicily Records - Thanks
Sat Jan 18 09:20:25 2003
80.205.204.45

Larry, Jeremy, and Anonymous.
Thanks so much for your replies.

Larry:
Do you know if the kills contained in folders RL 5 are posted anywhere on the web, similar to what Tony Woods posted for the aircraft claims? I was not aware of the reference that you provided of the Flak claims. Thank you very much. Last summer I had particularly made a trip to the Bundesarchiv in Frieburg, but was not directed to those folders.

Jeremy and Anonymous: Thanks very much your replies. Thankfully, I have previously seen and have copies of the references you recommended: Jochem Prien's books and copy of Tony' Wood's list of Luftwaffe Kills. Please post any other recommendations that you have.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark
Enclosures for Kriegstagebuch??
Sat Jan 18 09:24:14 2003
80.205.204.45

Does anyone know where I could find the Enclosures to the Kriegstagebuch for JG 77? At the Bundesarchiv in Frieburg I viewed the Kreigstagebuch, for JG 77 but the librarian did not know where I could find Enclosures 13, 14, and 14a.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Flak and JG 77 Records
Sat Jan 18 13:50:22 2003
205.188.208.171

Mark -

The Flak-Abschüße reports are not on the web. As for the sogennant "Claims Microfilms", there are supposedly 17 or 18 rolls in all, but I don't know which one of these has the Flak claims for the Med area (incl. Sicily) for June/July 1943.

Die Anlagen zum KTB des JG 77 either do not exist or are in private hands. BA-MA did not misinform you - they don't have them. Jochen Prien would obviously be the best one to contact to find out if they are in private hands, but he is difficult to reach. He doesn't usually respond to inquiries, even if you are lucky enough to obtain his addresses, both home and e-mail. He sees his mission as cranking out his avalanche of hefty tomes on the Jagdwaffe and not getting involved in the research needs of others.

Good luck with your search!

L.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark
Thanks
Sat Jan 18 17:57:02 2003
80.205.204.181

Larry,
Thanks very much. I will also try to contact the Jagdeschwaders 77 Veterans Group to see if they might know where I could find the Anlagen for JG 77.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark
KTB OKW & OKW-Bericht
Mon Jan 20 07:05:52 2003
80.205.204.171

Larry,
In Dr. Prein's books he cites references such as the following:

KTB OKW 1943 Teil II, S. 743
OKW-Bericht, 3.7.1943

Do you know what these references mean and where they can be obtained?
Thanks.
Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Re: KTB OKW & OKW-Bericht
Mon Jan 20 14:49:30 2003
64.12.96.10

Mark -

New and used copies of KTB d. OKW, both hardcover and paperback, can be found on www.abebooks.com, which is the main website finding aid for all books worldwide. The last time I looked there were some 35 listings, most of these by German antiquarian book dealers. You can access by either the title or the compiler/editor, SCHRAMM, Percy E. On the other hand, the 3-volume OKW-Berichte set, compiled by Günter WEGMANN, was published by Biblio Verlag in Osnabrück in 1982. It is OOP, very, very rare, and I've not been able to discover any listings for it in the used marketplace. I am told that Biblio "intends" to reprint it toward the end of this year or sometime in 2004. But Biblio's "intentions" more often than not go unfulfilled.

I should caution you that neither of these works go to the level of detail that you will need for your specific research. They are both broad in scope and rarely ever mention Luftwaffe units below the level of Fliegerkorps. Ultimately, I think you will need to take a look at the daily signals intelligence intercepts and reports prepared by the RAF Sigint Wing that covered Sicily for that two-month period. These are only available at the PRO in London. The best person to ask for advice on this is Nick Beale, who frequently appears on this Board. Nick is very familiar with the RAF "Y" Service material for the Italian Theater and could probably point you toward the specific RAF intercept units and folders at the PRO for this place and time.

I should also mention that the KTBs u. Anlagen for a number of the Luftwaffen-Flakabteilungen based on Sicily were captured during the Allied invasion. These records were microfilmed by the U.S. National Archives and can be found in Record Group 242, Microcopy T-405 (with a few in Microcopy T-321). But before you attempt to work with these, you must first know which Flak units were based there. You can find this out from the so-called "Claims Microfilms" that we have already discussed.

L.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark
Thanks
Mon Jan 20 21:34:48 2003
80.205.204.21

Larry,
Thanks very much. I will follow-up with Nick Beale and investigate the abebooks web site. I will also continue to work with NARA. I'll let you know if I find the needle in the haystack!
Thanks again.
Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Jason
Defence units
Sun Jan 19 16:50:00 2003
65.93.185.86



I'm still trying to track down the specific fighter units assigned to protect Berlin during the last few months of the war. I am very interested in records of their missions and aircraft.

Any help would be useful

Thanks in advance

Jason

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Defence of Berlin
Sun Jan 19 17:50:29 2003
212.159.50.70

I think that you have a problem in the sense that the nearer you approach the end of the war, the less Luftwaffe units were able to specialise - they could be assigned different missions from one day to the next (see Don Caldwell's books on JG 26 for example: they fought over Berlin on some days, over the western front on others). Also as German-held territory shrank, practicaly all the units in the north were defending Berlin to some degree because little else was left.

You could try to get hold of Werner Girbig's "Six Months to Oblivion" (German original "Start im Morgengrauen") which reviews a number of major actions in the final months of the war.

If you can get to the Bundesarchiv at Freiburg, the KART40 series of Luftwaffe disposition maps will sohw you who was where in the last months.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jason
the book u mentioned
Wed Jan 22 15:51:52 2003
65.93.185.86

thank you

Is the book u mentioned a good read, and is it accurate?


Jason

[Richard T Eger]

For the location of information on 1.(H)/32 at the BA/MA - Freiburg and for information on the BA/MA's Findbücher there, the reader is referred to the "Luftwaffe Units & Operations" forum, "1.(H)/32" topic.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave McDonald
Summarische Flugzeugverluste
Wed Jan 29 21:26:28 2003
203.96.111.237

Hi All

Anyone know more about this list? ...... any parts of it still exist , particularly in Ost front operations
It seems to be a general loss list which doesn't have details of locations, time (date is given). Unit is also given ......

TIA
Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
andreabr@notam02.no
Summarische Verlusten
Thu Jan 30 09:46:49 2003
217.70.229.41

Hi, Dave!

They do exist, although only a few are transferred to mikrofilm or fiche.

These are particularly useful when assessing losses for the GenQu6Abt lost period (1944).

Mail me, and I will send You a list of the individual reference numbers if You are interested in ordering copies from BAMA.

Regards,
Andreas