NA (PRO) RAF/SAAF Operations Record Books & Combat Reports

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Pierre BABIN
Claims of 64th and 126th Squadrons RAF
Sat May 11 22:52:55 2002
212.194.224.253

Could anybody know the claims of the 64th and 126th Squadrons (RAF), for 30 and 31 July, 01 and 02 August 1944:
- date and time of the claims
- name, rank of the winner pilots
- place of the crashes
- type of the down German aircrafts and fate of their pilots

I have searched ... unsuccesfully, the address and (or) the e-mail of 64 and 126 Squadrons veterans associations.

Could anybody help me?

Thank you very much

Pierre Babin

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
RAF Claims
Sun May 12 00:15:53 2002
212.159.1.5

If you can take a trip to London and the Public Record Office, you should have no difficulty finding the Operations Record Books of RAF squadrons and (with a little luck) the combat reports of the pilots concerned. All these things are on microfilms there

I guess you're talking about combats over France. If they involved Bf 109 or Fw 190, then Jean-Bernard Frappé's "La Luftwaffe face au Débarquement Allié" (Editions Heimdal) has German loss lists from D-Day through to the end of August 1944.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
harrowbeer wing combats
Sun May 12 00:52:28 2002
195.92.67.71

Hi
Hope this is of use from my book on RAF Harrowbeer for the 1st August, never could find out the german losses,
I have nothing for the other dates appears nothing was reported.
If you have any more info let me know and I will check my records, I have copies of the Sq diaries for the dates.

This day also saw another of the Wing's successful sorties, whilst escorting Mosquito which were to bomb oil storage tanks at Angers, A ME-109G was shot down by W/Cdr Bird-Wilson, ( who was flying Spitfire IXb, ML397, 5J-D, instead of his personal Spitfire IX, HB-W, MK782 ), after a tree top combat, the pilot baling out amidst a shower of papers, before his aircraft crashed into a field near Cande, And F/O O'Neil, 64 Squadron, Shot down another ME-109G over an airfield west of Angers, F/O O'Neil chased the ME-109 through the airfield Anti-Aircraft fire before he saw it's pilot bale out and his aircraft crash. Unfortunately the operation was not without loss as W/O Hinton, of 126 Squadron, Spitfire IX, 5J-B, NH397, crashed and was killed near Totnes.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Pierre BABIN
Many thanks to Jerry and Nick
Sun May 12 19:48:51 2002
212.194.210.228

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mark
2 Wellingtons which crashed 14/15th August 1940
Tue May 6 00:43:12 2003
195.92.168.165

Hi

I am trying to find out about 2 Wellingtons which crashed, one at HUNSTON, UK and one at BICESTER, UK on the night of the 14/15th August 1940, whilst returning from Ops (believed Oil Refinery at Blaye, Nr Bordeaux). Fortunately both crews survived.

Please can anyone help with the Wellingtons Squadron's, the bases and crews?

Thanks for your help
Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Hans Nauta
No 'real' losses
Thu May 8 14:36:33 2003
212.127.183.100

Hi Mark,

According to the Bomber Command Losses by W. R. Chorley no Wellingtons were written off due to a crash in England.

In other words, the Wellingtons were repaired and put back into service.

To check which Squadron's were involved you might check 1 and 3 Group Operations Record Books in the Public Record Office in London.

Good luck!

Hans Nauta

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark
Wellington crashes 14/15th Aug 1940
Sun May 11 19:29:22 2003
195.92.168.165

Dear Hans

I have 3 of Bill Chorley's Books (OTU and 1939/40 and 1942). I greatly respect his tremendous research and work, his books do not seem to cover every single loss though and some are brief.

However each Volume is a tremendous work in itself and he has to be highly commended, as getting at details of some of these incidents in order to write even a brief account is extremly time consuming and I have first hand experience of this, especially when official surviving MOD records are closed, or claimed not to have survived.

The reply from them is sometimes very economical and brief for some accidents. Regarding one incident, I eventually had 11 Deaths, some with Death Certificates, with full names, units, Squadrons, service Numbers and the notifying RAF Station all at the same location and yet little was known about the circumstances surrounding their loss, as the abode (RAF Station) on the Parish record was unreadable and the CWGC records failed to confirm their Units, until a relative contacted me out of the blue with a Death Certificate and said what did I make of this and I ended up with 11 deaths with an anonymous letter, believed to originate from the AHB (with its heading torn off) but only they would know certain other details in the letter, which claimed 8 crew, when in actual fact there was 9 on board and 2 Civilians on the ground.

I found some records like Police, Fire, A.R.P. Coroners records, have not survived either, or they are patchy for certain areas and better for others, many eyewitnesses including direct family members have also died too.

I have only covered 5 accidents from official records, PRO, RAF Museum, relatives, public eyewitnesses and those serving at nearby service units Balloon Sqn's, A.A. batteries, War Office Diaries, RAF & Naval liaison Diaries, Home Guard, Police, Civil Defence etc, County Emergency Planning Records, Fire records, Observer Corps Records, CWGC (which are not always accurate regarding the cause of civilian deaths when due to enemy action and incomplete regarding Units), newspapers, Records of the Registrar and Parish Burial Registers. Some records files at the PRO are incomplete, have parts missing or appear to be made up of several different files.

But it has taken me years to find all the information about some accidents and even now the exact cause is a mystery as official records even conflict with each other regarding the circumstances and times that led up to the accident and the accident itself.

At this stage I agree that they may have been repaired. I have visited the PRO and found out that 2 appear to have been badly damaged in crashes and a 3rd was a forced landing. Another 3 Wellingtons from Marham that night landed elsewhere, with only 6 out of the 12 getting safely back to base, per the Marham Station ORB in AIR 28 at the PRO.

I have sent for the Aircraft Cards several weeks ago and if written off shortly after the 15th Aug 1940, also requested the Flying Accident Cards. (write off dates on Aircraft Cards usually up to 10 days later).

Will contact Bill Chorley, as I have several write-offs (possibly 5), one with complete loss of 9 crew, that his book does not cover.

Regards

Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clkock High!:

Cheesey
HE177 shot down by RAF nightfighter south west of Guernsey.
Sat Sep 6 16:43:49 2003
212.9.29.114

Hello all!
I am searching for any information on a He177 which was shot down by a RAF nightfighter (Beaufighter?) on the 19th March 1944.The action took place to the south west of the island of Guernsey and I believe the 177s crew were lost!
What unit did it belong to and what was it doing there? Also which RAF unit claimed the a/c that night?
Cheers......Cheesey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andy Mitchell
HE177 shot down by RAF nightfighter south west of Guernsey.
Sat Sep 6 22:33:38 2003
80.2.186.219

Can't give you much but have the following from Greil/Dressel - He 177, 277,274.

19 March 1944 - Major raid on London - part of Steinbock.

In the Wk Nr listing there is reference to 332375 He 177A-3 6N+OK of 2./KG100 recorded as an operational loss on that date.

Suggest a look at the relevant volume of The Blitz Then and Now may also help.

Regards

Andy Mitchell

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Frank Olynyk
HE177 shot down by RAF nightfighter south west of Guernsey
Sat Sep 6 23:28:59 2003
162.40.187.120

There are in fact three claims for He-177 on this night. The first at 2146, G.2688, NE of Skogness, by 307 Sqn, Brochoki & Ziolkowski. The second at 2148 at B.4303, 30 m NNW of Cromer, by 25 Sqn, Greaves & Robbins. And the third, which would seem to be the one of interest to you, at 2332 AD.6952, 15 m W of Guernsey, by 406 Squadron, S/L Donald John Williams and F/O Clarence Joseph Kirkpatrick (RCAF), in Beaufighter VI KW101. The combat report is in Air 50, piece 139 (406 Sqn CRs), page stamped 82.

Frank.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Junker
He 177 loss!
Sun Sep 7 05:35:41 2003
80.164.73.19

There is only one loss recorded by I/KG 100 on this night.
Attack on Humber, failed to return:
2/I/KG 100 He 177A-3, wnr. 2375 Vbkz. 6N+DK. Crew missed.
Pilot Obltn. Heinrich Müller, observer Ogfr. Fritz Küchler, radiooperator Uffz. Ernst Günder, mechanic Uffz. Eberhard Hockauff, gunner Uffz. Heinrich Rodenstein and gunner Ogfr. Werner Utikal.

Junker

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Chris Goss
Re: HE177 shot down by RAF nightfighter south west of Guernsey
Sun Sep 7 06:55:23 2003
80.40.88.30

Apart from the KG 100 loss, there were no other recorded losses by KG 40 that night

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Cheesey
HE177 shot down by RAF nightfighter south west of Guernsey.
Sun Sep 7 08:24:34 2003
212.9.29.114

Thanks for the information everyone!I couldn't ask for more.
Cheers........Cheesey.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Melanie Herman
melherman@iafrica.com
SAAF Liberator disappeared Italy March 1945
Wed Dec 22, 2004 13:13
198.54.202.242


I am researching the disappearance of SAAF Liberator EW207 "K" on the night of 2/3 March 1945. Take-off was from Celone Airfield at Foggia at 21H30, part of a 24-strong force of 31 and 34 Squadron SAAF aircraft accompanying 178 Sqn RAF on a mission to bomb the marshalling yards at Porto Vescova in Verona East. 23 aircraft returned safely. OC's circumstantial report records no contact with the aircraft after take-off, but there are (oral) reports from airmen that the plane was last seen climbing off target. AA fire at the target was noted as being "slight inaccurate". Airmen reported sighting "single-engined hostiles" en route, but no contact was seen to be made. However "The War in Europe" in Chapter 13 appears to suggest that one of the fighters did attack.

No trace has ever been found of the Lib or any of her crew which included my uncle, Air Gunner W/O Harland Benn.

Persistent rumours on the base maintain that some or all crew were seen to bale out, were captured and executed by locals, possibly Black Brigades or other Fascisti unit. No documentary evidence of this has come to light.

Can anyone tell me where I could look for records of any Axis nightfighter action on this date?

With thanks in advance

Melanie Herman

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
2/3 March 1945
Wed Dec 22, 2004 23:47
80.225.113.55


Can't solve this one ofr oyu, I'm afraid. The information I have comes from the operations Record Book of No. 205 Group. Returning aircraft reported seeing an Fw 190, two Bf 109 and a Ju 88. There was only one inconclusive encounter, however: The "Ju 88" closed to 1,000 yards at 00.38 hours, fored a brief burst at the bomber nad was lost by evasive action.

I've researched this series of "night fighter" encounters. It's interesting because the Germans had no night fighters in Italy in 1945. The only Ju 88s were reconnaissance machines with no forward-firing armament. The Bf 109 units do not seem ever to have flown by night.

The Fw 190s of 1./NSG 9 did fly a few night fighting missions (it wasn't their intended role) and maybe shot down a Liberator in april but none of the veterans I've met remembers any success at all.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Melanie Herman
Re: 2/3 March 1945
Thu Dec 23, 2004 09:30
198.54.202.242


Hi Nick!
Thanks for your very informative reply! As you probably realise, I am really just trying to explore possible explanations for the plane's disappearance (other than the official assumption that it crashed at sea owing to some - unknown and unknowable - reason) Surely SOMEONE must have seen SOMETHING that night? The SAAF eventually recorded "no known grave" for the crew, but a later entry on the death register has "Lake Comacchio" written in pencil against all crew names. Whether this was as a result of some new information that came to light, or simply a geographic reference point for the presumed crash site, I have not been able to establish. (Lake Comacchio is a marshy "wetland" area on the Adriatic Coast at the mouth of the Po).

May I ask what your interest is in 205 Group? Are you researching it from a RAF perspective? Which ORB's do you have? Do you have access to any RAF or SAAF Sortie Reports for that mission?

The "inconclusive encounter" you mention at 00h38 - was that on a RAF a/c? And the "veterans" you've met - are they RAF? or Luftwaffe? or both? You seem to have consulted Luftwaffe records re the nightfighters; do you know whether Anti-Aircraft batteries would have kept records of possible "hits"?

Thanks for sharing you expertise - much appreciated!
Best wishes
Mel

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
SAAF Liberators
Fri Dec 24, 2004 00:10
80.225.123.151


Sorry for all the typos in my last post.

It’s a sad fact that very many planes did just crash or disappear for all kinds of reasons (weather, technical problems, navigational error). An A-20 failed to return from operations on the same night as the Liberator you asked about.

I researched 205 Group ops in relation to two books I've co-written and written resepctively: "Air War Italy 1944-45" (1996) and "Ghost Bombers: the Moonlight War of NSG 9" (2001), more details of both at http://www.ghostbombers.com/nickbeale.html

My perspective is the Luftwaffe and the veterans I mentioned were former Luftwaffe airmen.
All the sortie reports and Operations Record Books I’ve looked at are in the UK National Archives, Kew, London. Anyone has access to them (check their website for more: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk .

The only ones I got copies of related to two incidents in April 1945 where Liberators of No. 31 Squadron SAAF were very badly shot up in a night fighter attack but made it back.

I’m not very well up on Flak records but the Luftwaffe burnt most of its paperwork in the last days of the war, so the survival of what you want would be sheer luck. I seem to recall seeing at the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg a couple of situation summaries for months in Autumn 1944 which mentioned aggregate claims by the Flak but that’s all.

The “inconclusive encounter” was presumably with a 205 Group aircraft since it’s recorded in the Group’s Operations Record Book.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Melanie Herman
Re: SAAF Liberators
Fri Dec 24, 2004 13:04
198.54.202.242


Hi Nick!
Have just made a startling discovery! - the book I quoted in my first notice ("The War in Europe" in Chapter 13 appears to suggest that one of the fighters did attack.) is not, in fact "The War in Europe", but your very own book "Air War Italy 1944/45"!!!!!!!!!!

A photocopy of pages 173/174 were given to me by David Dent (ex 12 Sqn SAAF) with whom I have had some corrrspondence and whose story is featured on the very same page in your book! (He was the pilot of Marauder HD612 "N" which landed very badly damaged at Cervia after a raid on Conegliano.) David supplied the name of the book from memory as he had only been shown it by an English friend!!! (I have, unsurprisingly, searched in vain for the book, but have now put out a request for it through Stone & Stone - with the correct title!!!)

It is a reference on P 173 which made me question the SAAF report of no nightfighter attacks in the first place. Your last sentance in the section on 1-2 March 1945 reads: Two JU 188's were out NEXT NIGHT (i.e. 2/3 March).....Allied night bombers reported seeing 12 single-engined hostiles, one of which attacked".

Thanks for the info about AA Batteries' records, and about the RAF/SAAF Sortie Reports and ORB's at Kew. I have explored their site in great detail and have someone going to Kew to find and copy relevant material in the new year as it's a bit far to travel from SA!!!

As for the "inconclusive encounter", I wonder if the 205 Group ORB records whether it was with a SAAF or a RAF aircraft?

Thanks for your patient replies to my persistent questions!! It's all too likely that, eventually I will have to accept what you (and so many others) have said - that some planes DID "just disappear".

By the way - I saw on your website that you are also into world music. Do you know my brother-in-law, Trevor Herman from Stern's/Earthworks? His field is mostly African music, and he is often in fRoots!!!!!! Has been buddies with Ian Anderson for donkey's years!!! Small world!!! The SAAF "uncle" I am researching, Harland Trevor Benn, is in fact my uncle-in-law - Trevor Harland HERMAN's maternal uncle (and my husband's too, of course)!!!!!!!!!
Best regards
Mel
melherman@iafrica.com