ULTRA Messages at the PRO

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Philippe Gravez
Ultra messages
Thu Jun 15 13:48:19 2000


I have recently read through a file containing Ultra messages at the British PRO (file HW 5/235 dated April 1943) and I was astonished by the rich material available
about the Luftwaffe on the Mediterranean front.

Maybe this is common knowledge for most Luftwaffe researchers, but it's new to me. For those who are like myself, imagine a file containing several hundred
messages (the production of 3 or 4 days of Enigma decrypting), 90 % Luftwaffe related. There, you find strength returns, operation orders and reports, unit, plane and
staff movements, as well as numerous miscellaneous pieces.

However, using this material is clearly difficult since each item focuses on a very detailed (often unsignificant) part of the whole story. The structure of the archive file
also follows a logical order that I have been unable to decypher (!) and code names (both from German and Allied origins) are frequently encountered. Nevertheless, it's
not so often that the large number of available documents becomes a problem!

Unfortunately, the operations on the other fronts are sparsely documented as communications there were made by teleprinters rather than radio. I know that Don
Caldwell has taken advantage of the Ultra material for his JG 26 Diary (radio was also commonly utilized on the Western front after D-Day), but I wonder if other
authors have used this extraordinary source of information.

I guess the Ultra files are also available in the US archives.

Regards,

Philippe

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Vinnie O
ULTRA largely a Luftwaffe thing
Thu Jun 15 16:58:29 2000


I've read 3 or 4 books on Ultra, and one of the facts is that the Luftwaffe liked the system of radio links more than the Army or Navy. Any small airfield could get
"instant" reporting capability using Ultra and not have to worry about when a land line would get laid.

The other service of course used Ultra themselves, but there were more gaps for the Intell guys to fill.

By late 1944 the Intell guys had gotten QUITE lazy, and refused to believe that there was any buildup underway for a German winter offensive because there was
NOTHING about it in the Ultra traffic.

Since I don't expect to ever get the time to read and make sense of any of the original documents, I sure hope that more historians sort this all out for us. So many of
the older histories barely make a stab at listing what was really happening on the other side of the hill because these details were assumed to be lost during the
1960s. etc.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

John Beaman
Not True!!
Thu Jun 15 20:33:55 2000


Vinny:

That ULTRA was largely a Luftwaffe "thing" could not be further from the truth. It is true that the PRO files are largely Luftwaffe material. The Luftwaffe codes were the
first ones to be read on a consistent basis, but other sections at Bletchly Park worked on Kriegsmarine and Heer Enigma files. Along with the use of radio location
(Huff Duff), the U-boats almost constant use of the radio cost them dearly as Bletchly finally started getting a lot of the traffic decoded. It was a Enigma machine with
an extra rotor and took longer to figure out. The Heer, when they used the radio was also broken quite a bit, witness Rommel in N/A.

Lastly, it quite untrue that our "intelligence" people were lazy and failed to note the upcoming Bulge offensive: in fact they warned senior leaders of the possibility as
early as November, but it was those leaders that refused to beleive the possibility.

I highly recommend a recent book called "Station X" for a good overall view of Bletchly Park's accomplishments.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Juha
ULTRA
Fri Jun 16 11:49:27 2000


Hello
Yes, John is right. The LW messages were so numerous because they were the easiest to solve. LW communication people were more lax and their security
arrangements were lousy indeed. And AA and Flivos also sent much usefull info of the Heer and the KM businesses to the great delight to the Allied intelligence.
Greetings
Juha

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Nick Beale
ULTRA
Fri Jun 16 18:36:52 2000


Well insce you asked, I'm one author who's used ULTRA extensively since 1989: the DEFE3 series files at the PRO (HW5 is newly declassified). I've read tens of
thousands of these messages by now but Rabe Anton has probably read many more than that. I may have got to Ultra before Don Caldwell, I'm not sure. The products
of my eyestrain and headaches were a vital element of "Air War Italy 1944-45" by N Beale, F D'Amico & G Valentini (Airlife 1996) and will figure again in my next
book, "Ghost Bombers", as well as other projects on the "someday, maybe" list.

DEFE3 contains army, navy and Luftwaffe material on microfilm and the inter-service balance varies from time to time and theatre to theatre, at least as far as the
"main series of reports to Allied Commands" is concerned. Other files in the series are devoted to German and Italian Naval traffic, especially U-boats. What there
doesn't seem to be much of is Eastern Front material, just isolated signals. Active fronts generate more traffic, not surprisingly, especially where landline
communication is disrupted. So there isn't so much from France in May 1944 but a whole lot after 6 June!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: ULTRA
Sat Jun 17 00:58:34 2000


Excellently said, Nick.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

FrankS
11.04.1944 Biscaya airbattle RAF mosquitos vs Luftwaffe ju88
Sun Dec 3 23:02:59 2000


Has anybody detailed information confirming an alleged incident on 11.04.1944:
A german submarine left St. Nazaire on 10.04.1944 but was bombed in the Biskaya?
On 11.04.1944 twelve german Ju88 aircraft of ZERSTÖRERGESCHWADER 1 took off at Vannes to look out for survivors but were tracked down by about 25 Mosquitos
(british? canadian? american?). A battle followed with about 8 aircraft lost (at least one non-german). One german loss was: the crew of pilot "GERD FRITZ" (MIA), wireless
man "JÖRG ZINK" (rescued), observer" WILLY ?"(rescued)

Any details on:
-the submarine
-the british (american?) unit involved including the lost crews
-the german losses

Thanx Frank

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: Bay of Biscay - 11.04.44
Mon Dec 4 02:38:26 2000


Suggest beginning by referring to Chris Goss, Bloody Biscay
(n.p.: Crecy, 1997). Additional archival information might, repeat, MIGHT, be found in ULTRA decrypts of German naval traffic held by the PRO in DEFE 3.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mike Heslop
Convoy KMS 31 Attack by KG 26 Oran 11-11-1943
Tue Feb 5 21:15:15 2002
195.238.2.213

On 11-11-1943 about 40 miles from Oran in the Med, convoy KMS 31 was spotted by single aircraft at about 6 pm
this aircraft radioed back information about the convoy and subsequent attacked by about 53aircraft from K.G 26 assisted by K.G.100 followed.
four ships were sunk including the Belgium ship SS Carlier
seven aircraft were shot down including the original spotter plane.

How can I find any details of these units, where they were based.and who was involved
reply in English if possible.

Any information at all will be welcome

Regards
Mike Heslop
England

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
KG 26 Attack on Convoy KMS 31
Tue Feb 5 21:59:37 2002
198.26.123.36

Mike,

Ah! A nice worthwhile query you have there.

In my opinion, as almost always with good historical methodology, you should begin with the most general sources, i.e., the literature. This means searching the official British histories of the war with especial focus on the naval war in the Mediterranean. The Air Historical Branch of the Royal Air Force has very fine semi-published volumes on the air war in the Med which will doubtless include this convoy attack. Hinsley, et al, British Intelligence in World War II, may very well comment on the intelligence dimensions of this attack.

Torpedo los! is a German-language unit history of KG 26. It is, so far as I know, the only organizational history of KG 26 available.

My file copies are not to hand, but I believe it very likely that ULTRA: Main Series of Signals Conveying Intelligence to Allied Field commands (NY: Clearwater Publishing, 1979) will provide a few signals intercepts
related to German air activities on 11 November 1943.
A librarian can assist you in locating this microfilm.
The original materials, of course, are lodged in the PRO,
and examining them there might very well be easier than
obtaining the requisite microfilm.

Good luck on your research.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

ULTRA reports are available both in the U.S. and at the PRO in London. A good discussion as to how these reports can be accessed can be found in the topic "ULTRA - 2" on the "Intelligence Related Documents" forum.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Russ Heinl
Luftwaffe Order of Battle
Sun Sep 29 19:39:09 2002
216.232.80.87

Hello;
I am trying to find the Luftwaffe "Order of Battle" for June 1944 through to March 1945.
I have seen this document for earlier years, but cannot find it for the period I am looking for.
The purpose is to see which JG units were stationed where in France & Germany during the period of my research.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Cheers;
Russ

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Orders of Battle
Mon Sep 30 13:19:01 2002
212.104.129.218

There are some in Alfred Price's "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe" (available in both English and German language editions)and the original returnss are in the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg and were normally compiled every 10 days.

IIRC there are none for February and March 1945 surviving: they jump from January to April.

There is an ULtra decrypt of the OOB of the Luftwaffe in Italy for March 1945 (no German fighter units present) and if you spend enough time with Ultra you will pick up OOB infomration for various individual , sometimes at almost daily intervals but this is nothing like the comprehensive picture you are seeking.

There is a lot of surviving material from Luftflotte 6 (Freiburg or USAFHRA, I can't remember)which includes OOBs for its units but of course they were only on Reich territory at the very end.

(In the above, I'm making the assumption that Nick is talking about the Ultra records at the PRO.

Regards,
Richard)

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

kb
Luftwaffe Aerial Reconnaissance Pre-D-Day
Sat Oct 5 19:23:19 2002
207.69.39.18

Looking for feedback on LW units responsible for surveillance of the invasion ports. Anyone have specifics on the units, tactics employed, assessment of effectiveness, and nature of Allied counter efforts?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Graham Boak
Ar.240A-04 (DB603 engines)
Sat Oct 5 21:54:22 2002
195.92.168.167

Oberst. Goetz flew the high-performance aircraft above in flights over the UK in early 1944 - March? He tried to "sneak" in by following returning US bombers and succeeded, but was generally uncomplimentary about the handling of the aircraft, and thought it unsuitable for the task.

The unit was the experimental staffel of the Luftwaffe High Command's reconnaissance unit. I can find the correct German title if you want it.

I have read of no other successful daylight recce.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

kb
Any info on NAG13 activities? n/t
Sun Oct 6 16:35:40 2002
207.69.51.33

n/t

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Recon over England, early 1944
Sun Oct 6 17:33:50 2002
212.159.22.84

If you search long enough through Ultra decrypts for spring 1944 you will find the odd report of Bf 109s covering the Plymouth-Dartmouth stretch of the Devon coast (IIRC they flew in pairs).

In the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre reports at the Public Record Office (based on "bugging" conversations between priosoners) Oberfähnrich Meyer (Bordfunker of an Me 410 of 1.(F)/121 who was captured 26 Apr 44) mentions a crew from his unit photographing portsmouth preparatory to a Luftwaffe raid.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Angelos Mansolas
Luftwaffe fighter losses France 1944
Sun Nov 17 14:11:46 2002
195.97.118.124

Hi all,

I am searching for a list of Luftwaffe fighter losses in France during the summer of 1944 for the following dates:

22 April, 21 June, 24 June, 8 July, 8 August.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Losses in France
Sun Nov 17 17:44:19 2002
212.159.53.213

The Luftwaffe's aircraft loss records for 1944 have been missing since the war. The personnel casualty records have effectively closed to all but relatives of the airmen concerned by a German privacy law introduced in the early 1990s.

For dates from 6 June onward you will find much (but not all) of the information you seek in Jean-Bernard Frappé's "La Luftwaffe face au debarquement allié" (Editions Heimdal, France, 1999) however this will not necessarily cover aircraft losses where the pilot was not injured nor losses due to bombing/strafing etc.

In the Bundesarchiv at Freiburg (or in the Public Record Office, London in tranlsation) there are some records of Luftflotte 3 for the invasion period which include some figures for daily successes and losses.

These can be supplemented by reference to prisoner of war interrogation reports (held in the PRO and in America) by reports of monitored R/T traffic in the PRO and by reading through several thousand "Ultra" decrypts for the relevant period.

So there's no simple or final answer but the Frappé book is probably the best printed source you'll find.