on the fW 190 in the PRO

[Philippe Willaume]

Air 40/150 151 fw 190 A
Air 40/152 fw190 C,D,G,F
Air 40/205 fw 152 (ta)
air 16/497 658 (can not remember)
air 14/3641 reports on fw
DSIR 23/13484(test us with a p47)
Dsir 23/11356 (extract of flight)
DSIR 23/14936 (structural test on fw190)
Air 40/15 and 43 Fw190 preliminary reports
Air 40/124 photos of fw.

there surely more......

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Yx190
FW190A - quite slow fighter??
Mon Aug 12 03:47:20 2002
202.108.116.170

Hi, all
I get a data file contain some fighter's top speed in various altitude

( note, 0 altitude in meter, 517, speed in km)
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-4
0 517 1350 543 2660 535 4000 567 6000 611 7000 606 7500 600 8000 590
Yakovlev Yak-3
0 590 1000 618 2000 628 3100 655 4000 650 5000 640 6000 630
Yakovlev Yak-9P
0 590 1000 608 2000 627 3000 640 4000 650 5700 673
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.VB
610 537 1800 564 2440 561 3660 556 5490 546 7315 527
Lavochkin La-5FN
0 550 2000 593 3190 622 4000 619 4925 611 6220 639 7000 632 8000 613
Messerschmitt Bf 109F-1
0 515 2000 547 4000 576 6000 600 7000 589 8000 570
Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6
0 547 2000 590 3000 600 4000 611 6900 621
1220 470 3660 515 6100 562 6645 573 8535 552 10360 510 11580 425
Supermarine Spitfire Mk.IX
1220 525 2440 553 3660 584 4875 616 6100 608 8535 658 9755 636 10975 607
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.IX
610 579 1220 586 1830 586 3050 595 4205 626 6100 624 9150 611
Supermarine Spitfire HF Mk.IX
1830 568 3660 608 4450 624 5490 624 7740 652 9145 642
Supermarine Spitfire F Mk.XIV
0 584 1220 619 1525 629 2440 626 3660 624 4875 652 6100 681 7740 718 9145 713 10360 702 11890 677
North American P-51B-5 Mustang
3050 636 6100 661 7620 682 9145 697

I always regard FW190 as a very fast fighter low and medium altitude before,
But now, according this table, puzzle me greatly, FW190A-4 is quite slow below 6000m, far below its maximum speed. A few days before, I also got a soviet's report which coincide with these data. It claim that La-5FN is 15-25km faster than FW190A-4 below 4000m even with canopy open. As for La-7, its engine only about 200hp more than FW190A's, but can reach 618km(385 miles) in sea level. 100km faster. This is quite incredible.

My question is ,
1) Are these data correct?
2) Is there any improvement in later version of FW190A ? How fast it is?

Any information will be appreciated.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
10 pences
Wed Aug 14 15:31:38 2002
208.237.100.114

Well those value are rougly correct if you considere a fw 190 A3-A4 with 2MG 151/20 2MG 131 and 2MG FFM and a bmw 801 D derated.
That would be allright for a mid 42 fw 190.
by early 43 the exhaust and the spark plug has been chromed.
some change were done to exhaust pipes and the compressor was modified to be more performant at low level.
bear in mind that all those modification were applied progressively.
the modification of the compressor was a kit until at least june 43.


A Fw 190 A5 at 4100 kg MG FFM with 90 rounds.
the sea level speed is about 565 kmh and would be about 650 kmh at 6400 m

for refrence a A8 with the erhonte notleistung at 4360 (back seat optional tank full and 2 mg 131 and 4 mg 151/20) is about 680 kmh at sea level.


I hope this helps

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Max speed of Fw 190A-8
Thu Aug 15 02:13:06 2002
134.117.137.62

According to FW's Tech Desc #284 of 30 Nov 44, the max speed of the A-8 (in 3 sheets of performance charts compiled in Oct 44) with increased supercharger pressure, at T/off and emergency power [2700 rpm], was 566 km/h (ca. 352 mph) at SL, and 652 (ca 405 mph) at 5.5km altitude. And, this was with U/C main doors fitted, and the aircraft surfaces filled and polished. So you can be sure that the max speed of operational aircraft was quite a bit less.

George

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

yx190
Thank you very much.
Thu Aug 15 02:46:36 2002
202.108.116.170

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
Re: Max speed of Fw 190A-8
Thu Aug 15 09:01:44 2002
208.237.100.114

hello george.
Welcome to the world of the fw 190. (and the contradicting official sources)
The only time i have seen such value were from a translated chart and part of the translated manual. Acoording to the airplane description and the performance, I beleive that is the source you are refering to.
(there is a chart with 2 mk 108 and one with gm1)
you will notice that the weight are not correct and the somme other ineactitude (like the extra tank and gm1 together which is not physically possible) but i beleive it is mainly translation stuff and the german rounded the weight in generic documents.


I have two german charts for the a8 from the PRO and IWM.
One is from test conducted in 11.V.44.
the actual documents is from 1-XI-44
the speed is between 675 and 680 in erhonte notleistung (2700rpm and 1.65 ata) at see leavel
the top speed in start & notleistung (2700 rpm and 1.42 Ata) is 555 kmh

the top speed at 1.65 ata is 650-655 @ 5500m
the top speed at 1.42 ata is 645 @ 6.2.

an other document from later in 44 (about september october) give
560 at sea level in the 1.42 ata regime
and 645 @ 6400-6300 m

in the 1.65 regime Sl speed is 685 and max @5300 is 660 kmh

I beleive that the last values are probably for a plane with the seat tank installed but empty so instead of 4360 it is 4250...

I think the german values are the "more correct" because they are coherant with the chart of the A6 with GM1 tank (that is 4300 kg)
560 at SL and 650 in 6300 @ 1.42 ata.

and the A5 @ 4100 kg
565 @sl and 655 @ 6400.

I hope it helps

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Top speeds of 190 A-8
Fri Aug 16 02:02:54 2002
134.117.137.136

Unfortunately, I'm not sure it does, Willaume.

Are you saying the speed charts you got at the PRO and IWM are German and the ones prepared by FW aren't? Yes, I think you saw the charts I am referring to. But, for the tankage with GM1 it states "525 Ltr + GM1 system," so perhaps you glanced at the chart a bit too quickly. And, as for your comment that the your later chart gives the max. speed of the A-8 at SL as 685 km/h at 1.65 ata, is, I venture to say, impossible.

But, yes, there are different speeds and altitudes given for just about any aircraft you could name, if you could look at all the performance charts. These flights that I mentioned were abviously made with a brand-new aircraft, with a fully tuned engine, without an ETC 501 mounted, with main gear door wheels, and the external surfaces were filled and polished (with the polished underlined), and a generic all-up weight of 4300 kg. And they had guns and ammunition. The charts also mention that a mounted ETC would cost 12 km/h at SL and 15 km/h at 6 km.

but, if you take the max speed stated on the FW chart of 565 km/h at SL, you will note it is not so far out of line with at least the 109, which had the following (according to a report [Me/109/Re/76] issued in Nov 44): G-6/R-2: 568, G-8/R-5: 530, G-10: 562, G-14/ASM: 560, G-14/U-4: 568, and K-4: 580.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
Re: Top speeds of 190 A-8
Fri Aug 16 10:22:22 2002
208.237.100.114

Yope you are right, I typed a tad too quickly.
My wife is right a man should not do two things at the same tine

here is a proper version
the speed is between 575 and 580 in erhonte notleistung (2700rpm and 1.65 ata) at see level
the top speed in start & notleistung (2700 rpm and 1.42 Ata) is 555 kmh

the top speed at 1.65 ata is 650-655 @ 5500m
the top speed at 1.42 ata is 645 @ 6200

In other document from later in 44 (about September October) give
560 at sea level in the 1.42 ata regime
and 645 @ 6400-6300 m

in the 1.65 regime Sl speed is 585 and max @5300 is 660 kmh

None the less the chart your are referring to are translation of FW charts. It comes with the translation of the A8-A9 manual. (as far as i can tell it is a good translation

The ones in the PRO and IMW are original FW charts.
The German charts give a speed loss of 20 kmh under V.H and 30 km/h above for the ETC501 and the extra fuel tank so that fits quite well the translated data. This is value is confimed by a test for F9 and F15 (F9 and etc 504 instead of etc501) with 1*250 kg bomb and 4 50 kg. and the speed with and without the bombs give results of that magnitude.
I am not saying that the US translated data are rubbish and useless and I believe that they are translation of genuine document, however I thing the PRO values are "the more likely" because they are in the trend of other FW 190 charts, I have seen.
especially a A6 with GM1 tank at 4340 kg the only difference are the mg 17 instead of the mg 131.(The curves are from 14-III-43) but the document itself is from 1-XI-44
560 at see level (1.42 ata)
650 at 6250 (1.42 ata)
The A6 values are themselves in check with the A5 at 4100 kg and the test for erhonte notleistung ob a A5 in September 43 gives values of the same magnitude.

I have found the A6 value used for a A8 in document from the Smithsonian but i thing it was really to have a reference point and not a separate measurement. So it is probably the same curve and not a new one

All those curve are in AIR 40/151
(it is a massive file, you need to go there and photocopy what you want, ordering a copy of it will probably be very expensive. i can pass you doc if you want)
Do you have anything to corroborate the "us translated data", i am writing a book on the fw190 and I was not able to find the original document used for that translation in the Smith .... so i would be interested
I hope it helps more.... sorry again and you were right about the gm1.

cheers

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Reference for 190
Fri Aug 16 14:30:06 2002
134.117.137.51

Thank you for your comments, Willaume.

I am the person who translated the A-8 manual and transscribed the FW performance charts. And, I think I probably spent more time to ensure the transscription was corrent than they spent creating the charts in the first place.

I will see if I can find the original charts for your reference. But, as I said I spent a good deal of time on the copies.

All the best,
George

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
Re: Reference for 190
Fri Aug 16 14:54:42 2002
208.237.100.114

Well, you did a pretty good job in the translation.

Thanks, that would be wonderfull.....

Do you remember the date of the manual you translated?
I have the june 44 version
Am I to beleive that the charts were a compilation of some other document.(all the FW 190 manual do not have speed chart in them).

It took me a while to understand why the fw190 A5 ad a such different speed chart of some A3-A4 when they simingly used the same engine (many tanks to BMW or FW for changing bits of the engine without changing the designation, luckilly the new compressor or compressor modification was a kit at least in early 43)

cheer maty
and thank for everything.
PS Your translation was the first to get the A8 WEP "right" ie without MW50..

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
Re: Reference for 190
Fri Aug 16 14:54:42 2002
208.237.100.114

Well, you did a pretty good job in the translation.

Thanks, that would be wonderfull.....

Do you remember the date of the manual you translated?
I have the june 44 version
Am I to beleive that the charts were a compilation of some other document.(all the FW 190 manual do not have speed chart in them).

It took me a while to understand why the fw190 A5 ad a such different speed chart of some A3-A4 when they simingly used the same engine (many tanks to BMW or FW for changing bits of the engine without changing the designation, luckilly the new compressor or compressor modification was a kit at least in early 43)

cheer maty
and thank for everything.
PS Your translation was the first to get the A8 WEP "right" ie without MW50..