Luftwaffe Planquadrate map system - 4

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Merinos
Pl.Qu. 15 West S/8055 ???
Sun Feb 23 09:03:15 2003
80.9.26.225

Please,
Can someone tell me where I can find a map or reference of those Luftwaffe type of position, exemple :
Pl.Qu. 15 West S/8055

Thanks.

Merinos

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Chris Goss
Re: Pl.Qu. 15 West S/8055 ???
Sun Feb 23 14:23:57 2003
80.40.93.115

15W/8055 is SW of Scilly Isles

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Merinos
Re
Mon Feb 24 18:28:17 2003
193.248.234.245

Thank you Chris,

In fact I was not only looking for this one but this type of reference in a general way.

Merinos.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andrey Dikov
rus_oberst@mail.ru
General LW Map Grid map
Tue Mar 4 15:11:16 2003
195.201.254.5

Hello,

Sometime ago I've started to make a special automatical convertor of LW Map Grid coordinates to the ordinary geographical coordinates, because I got tired to make it 'manually' all the time.

Working on it, I've designed a map with a grid of Zusatzzahlgebiete for general orientation. As far as I will share the convertor to all who needs, I decided to show the map already at this stage. Maybe it will be interesting even now.

I'd like to ask community and particularly Andreas Brekken (thanks to whom and his www-page I've learnt LW Grid system out and became able to start making convertor) - if the result will be interesting - may be it's worth to place this convertor on some site?

Map:

http://www.vvskbf.newmail.ru/Europe4.jpg

Best wishes,

Andrey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ed West
Your map
Tue Mar 4 16:24:32 2003
64.7.166.57

Hello,

You have made an important contribution. Those who have Luftwaffe map coordinates will now have an idea of the location being mentioned. However, there will be those instances where someone will want to know the name of a specific town. Compounding the problem might be having a German spelling (or version if you will) of, say, a Polish town and then having another reference to the same town except with the original Polish spelling. In any case, you have made a great start, and at no cost to the user. Thank you.

Ed

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Merinos
Great !
Tue Mar 4 18:41:39 2003
80.9.21.71

Just one word : Great !

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
andreabr@notam02.no
Gradnetzmeldeverfahren
Tue Mar 4 19:30:27 2003
217.70.229.41

Hi, Andrey!

Great work!!

I will be launching a new site soon, and will be proud to publish Your work there.

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrey Dikov
Misprint?
Wed Mar 5 13:14:44 2003
195.201.254.5

Thank you for your kind words, guys,

I'm about to finish convertor, but I have one question to you, Andreas, to check out. In your description of the LW Map Grid system you write:

"The ’Meldetrapez’
The third subdivision is called ’Meldetrapeze’ and have an area of approximately 3x4 kilometers. The latitudinal parallels positioned at 1’40”, 3’20”, 6’40” and 8’20” and the longitudinal parallels positioned at 3’20” and 6’40” divide the ’Kleintrapez’ into nine ’Meldetrapeze’."

Dikov: if the latitudes are positioned in four positions (1'40, 3'20, 6'40, 8'20) and longitudes - in two positions (3'20, 6'40) inside Kleintrapez than it should be FIFTEEN of Meldetrapeze in the Kleintrapez. More so, Kleintrapeze has a latitude 'height' of 5' and this value is less than 6'40 and 8'20.

Personally I've decided that it's some misprint and I think this paragraph should be:

"The ’Meldetrapez’
The third subdivision is called ’Meldetrapeze’ and have an area of approximately 3x4 kilometers. The latitudinal parallels positioned at 1’40” and 3’20”, and the longitudinal parallels positioned at 3’20” and 6’40” divide the ’Kleintrapez’ into nine ’Meldetrapeze’."


Correct me if I'm wrong.


Best wishes,

Andrey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Not wrong but not well explained
Wed Mar 5 23:48:04 2003
217.70.229.41

Hi!

In fact there is not a misprint, just not a perfect explanation....

The Kleintrapez is 10 minutes in longitude but only 5 minutes in latitude.

Imagine two Kleintrapeze stacked on top of each others. These two would be 10 minutes both in longitude and latitude.

If I had stated that the Kleintrapez would be divided along 1'40" and 3'20" this would have made sense only for the lower of the two, while the division for the upper would be explained as lower latitude border + 1'40" and lower latitude border + 3'20".

So if You draw it up Andrey, You will find that the explanation is correct when You look at the Kleintrapeze in pairs....

Hope this explains, and I will try to write a better explanation in my article with figures as soon as I regain access to my files at Stormbirds....

Regards,
Andreas

PS! Andrey, You shouldn't have access to nice maps of the Northern European area in some electronic format??

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrey Dikov
Murmansk area maps
Thu Mar 6 10:29:50 2003
195.201.254.5

Ok, it seems I've understand, but why did you make this explanation with pairs of Meldetrapez? I mean it would be easier to explain the Meldetrapez dividing similar to the one regarding Kleintrapeze.

As for Northern Europe... Well, at least you can check the maps of Kolskiy penninsula and Murmansk area:

http://www.velotourism.ru/gps_map/kolsky/index.htm

http://www.velotourism.ru/gps_map/kolsky/list_index.htm

You can find another Soviet Union maps on this server as well.

Regards,

Andrey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
question from map beginner
Thu Mar 6 08:40:21 2003
213.246.78.70

Andrey,

great effort!

Is there any chance that someone did (or will) reconstruct system for Eastern front grid specials? For instance grid 86 642 is somewhere in Kuban area ...

Or is the general overview of this system accessible?

kind regards

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrey Dikov
Corresponding Greenwich coordinates
Thu Mar 6 10:12:42 2003
195.201.254.5

I've read your post and my convertor gave a result, that Pl.Qu. 86642 (Kuban area - 34 Ost) has the following Greenwich coordinates:

south-western corner:
longitude: 38o 35' 00"
latitude: 45o 22' 30"

north-eastern corner:
longitude: 38o 40' 00"
latitude: 45o 25' 00"

Now you can find this square on ordinary geographic map.

This's right if your Pl.Qu. regards to the period before 30.04.43. If later - I can give the corresponding coordinates.


The convertor is about to be finished to place it for a testing, although I'm still not sure in my interpretation of the Meldetrapeze.


Regards,

Andrey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
PLQ
Thu Mar 6 15:09:25 2003
213.246.78.70

Andrey,

thanks for example. By co-incidence this is taken from claim made on 1.8.43. I would be happy to locate claims of that day. So I will be impatient for your convertor!

I will also try to collect original PLQ maps (originals or copies) so I will be able to cross-check the results.

best regards

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrey Dikov
Result for the period after 30.04.43
Thu Mar 6 15:35:32 2003
195.201.254.5

Hello, Jan,

>thanks for example. By co-incidence this is taken from >claim made on 1.8.43. I would be happy to locate claims of >that day. So I will be impatient for your convertor!

In case after 30.04.43 the coordinates of the square are:

1. 38o33'20"E, 45o23'20"N

2. 38o36'40"E, 45o25'00"N

It seems this place locates near Krasnodar - I can look at the map, when I'll get home.

The coordinates are right if the convertor works properly at this very moment (I modify it continuously, trying to improve. Now it calculates the cordinates on east of Greenwich meridian and on north of equator properly, but makes the mistakes with quadrants west of Greenwich).

>I will also try to collect original PLQ maps (originals or >copies) so I will be able to cross-check the results.

Yes, it would be just great to test it!

Rgds,

Andrey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
maps
Thu Mar 6 15:41:07 2003
213.246.78.70

Andrey,

thanks for update.
As soon as I will have first two maps, I will send you copy.

privet

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

James Oglethorpe
Luftwaffe Grid Map in the Bay of Biscay
Thu Jul 3 22:06:13 2003
139.134.64.157

One of the factors which upset operational co-ordination between the U-boats and Luftwaffe aircraft during WW2 was the surprising fact that the two services persisted in using two completely different grid reference systems for their maps.

The U-boat grid system is nicely illustrated on:
on http://uboat.net/maps/grid.html

This grid system was designed to give a quick six-character reference to a boat's location for fast radio transmission which would frustrate Allied codebreaking efforts. The grid divided the ocean into regular squares which measured, on average, eight degrees of latitude/longitude on each side. These grid squares were given a two-character code. For instance, the Bay of Biscay is covered by Quadrant "BF".

These quadrants were then usually subdivided into 81 smaller areas (a 9x9 grid) which were given their own two-digit numerical locations. The more precise position within each of these smaller areas was indicated with yet another two-digit code (another 9x9 grid) which gave the position to within typically a couple of nautical miles.

The resultant U-Boat position code looked like this: "BF8155" - a position about 200km north of Cape Ortegal in the centre of the Bay of Biscay.

No doubt the Luftwaffe gridmap system was designed with similar objectives in mind, but in comparison, the Luftwaffe grid references for a similar location in the Bay of Biscay were coded in a quite different way - something like this: "24 W/1718"

Although I have a copy of the U-boat grid map, I don't have the Luftwaffe one, and I'm wondering if some kind soul who does could please give me the latitude and longitude for the following Luftwaffe positions in the Bay:
"24 W/1718"
"24 W/1778"
"24 W/1785"

Thanks in advance. James in Sydney Australia.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Horst Weber
ho.weber@t-online.de
grid
Fri Jul 4 00:23:07 2003
217.237.123.73

James !

According to the Luftwaffe grid-system "Gradnetzmeldeverfahren", you miss your expected area for some ten miles in westerly direction. If these coordinates are prior spring 1944, they give roughly the following positions:

- 24 W/1718 : 10'40"W - 46'45"N
- 24 W/1778 : 10'40"W - 46'00"N
- 24 W/1785 : 10'10"W - 46'05"N

Hope, this helps,

Horst Weber

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

James Oglethorpe
Much Appreciated Horst! (n/t) (nm)
Fri Jul 4 05:45:08 2003
139.134.64.157

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
grid change
Fri Jul 4 07:49:47 2003
213.246.78.70

Dear Horst,

I supposed that grid change was done in spring (April) 1943. Is 1944 change another one or am I wrong with 1943?

kind regards

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Horst Weber
grid-change
Fri Jul 4 18:14:12 2003
217.237.120.248

Dear Jan !

You are completely right. The change from digit-called positions to letter-called positions was in spring 1943. But in the FluKo- and Luftgaukommando-Reports you find in a transitional period up to May - June 1943 (at some LKG's it took a little bit longer) the prior reporting modus. After that, all location reports were given in the well-known letter-form.

Best regards,

Horst Weber

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marko Jeras
But, even in 1944...
Fri Jul 4 21:44:56 2003
195.29.140.133

...official victory lists state location in old 5-digit form. So, the transition period was much longer :-)

All the best,

Marko

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
I mean something else
Mon Jul 7 07:49:03 2003
213.246.78.70

Hi Horst,

the five digit PLQ system was used even in 1945. Reputedly this digital system was changed (shifted) in spring of 1943. Apparently digital system was used for eastern Europe along with letter system for western and central Europe.

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bernd Barbas
Luftwaffekoordinaten
Fri Jul 4 12:44:35 2003
194.45.48.11

Hallo Horst ,

some friends are researching the 13.9.44 , when B-17 attacked IG Farben near Auschwitz .
I / JG 52 was at Krakau airfield and they claimed two victories .
1 ) 11.35 , Fw Erich Büttner , PQ 90179 and
2 ) 11.54 , Oblt Trenkel , PQ 90425 .
I have a lot of maps with this info about the eastern front , but not for Poland .
Can you transfer this PQ data to geogaphical position ?
Thank you for any help .

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Horst Weber
Luftwaffe-grid
Fri Jul 4 21:58:23 2003
217.230.78.234

Hi Bernd !

The PQ-grid (Poland-Silesia area) is limited from
17'30"E - 18'00"E and 50'15"N - 50'30"N.

The area is surrounded in the West from the towns of Wiodary-Rudzczka-WierzbioJindrichow and in the East to the towns of Krapkovice-Walce-Twardawa-Gosciecien.

Your area in question, PQ 90179 may have been the area around Kazimierez-Grudina.

I./JG 52, then stationed in Krakau, had about 130 km WNW flight to intercept the bombers that day in the area.

Hope, this helps

All the best,

Horst Weber

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bernd Barbas
Luftwaffe Grid
Tue Jul 8 15:20:56 2003
194.45.48.11

Hallo Horst ,

thank you for this info , I will give it to my friends !

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

James Oglethorpe
One-Page Explanation
Sat Jul 5 01:20:28 2003
139.134.63.153

Thanks to Horst's explanation, I have now found a neat one-page description of the grid system.

For those who are interested, it is:

http://www.stormbirds.com/eagles/research/gradnetz/gradnetz.html