Luftwaffe museums in Germany - 11

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Ernesto del Olmo
German D9 found
Sun Aug 31 10:51:17 2003
80.129.154.75

Hi forum,

maybe there is already a thread about this theme, maybe i overread that, sorry if!

A german friend emailed me that the germans found the wreck of a 190-D9 near the town Elbmarsch which must be in the Lauenburg area. The pilot was identified as Lt. Werner Schramm. They also found a parachute with the mark Chr. Schramm. Schramm was from JG26 and killed on April 29, 45.

Ok, that´s not my problem. I have here the book of Axel Urbanke, MIT FW190 D-9 IM EINSATZ. Well, it is in german language and i am not very good in reading german. But my grandfather (ex-german stuka pilot) translated me a few lines. On page 398 there is a picture of Schramm and in the text is mentioned that Schramms body was identified 1989. He was laying in the grave near Wittenberge and that a Corporal Johannes Schlimper (6./26) is missed until now.

What is now the truth? Is Schramm identified for 100% or was it Schlimper with Schramm´s his parachute?

Thanks in advance for answers.

Ernesto

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ernesto del Olmo
German D9 found
Sun Aug 31 10:59:48 2003
80.129.154.75

P.S.: This is the original german newspaper article, don´t understand every word, but i understand that they found english money in his pocket:

Letzte Ruhe für Leutnant Schramm
Elbmarsch: Am 29. April 1945 wurde der deutsche Pilot abgeschossen. Jetzt fanden Hobby-Forscher die Maschine und sterbliche Überreste.

Von Andreas Schmidt

Krümse - Ein Weizenfeld südlich von Krümse Ende August 2003: Ein Bagger gräbt ein vier Meter tiefes Loch, Kerosingeruch liegt in der Luft. Schaulustige stellen sich die Frage: Was wird diese Ausgrabung ans Licht bringen?

29. April 1945, der Krieg ist schon längst verloren: Jagdmaschinen des Typs Focke-Wulf 190 D 9 des Jagdgeschwaders 26 ("Schlageter") in Uetersen starten in Richtung Lauenburg an der Elbe. Dort hat die britische Armee einen Brückenkopf gebildet, den die Jäger bekämpfen sollen. Drei deutsche Jäger kehren nicht zurück. Sie werden von britischen Jägern abgeschossen.

"Wir haben an der Absturzstelle Anfang der 50er-Jahre gespielt", erinnert sich Gerhard Tillmann (71) aus Rönne. Damals war das Gebiet noch feuchtes Weidegebiet. "Mit Haken zogen wir ein paar Aluminiumteile des Flugzeuges aus dem Loch und verkauften sie an einen Schrotthändler." Dann wuchs - im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes - Gras über die Sache. In den 70er-Jahren wurde aus der Weide ein Acker. "Anfang der 80er-Jahre kam noch mal ein Herr aus Winsen und erkannte mit Hilfe einer Wünschelrute die Absturzstelle", sagt Franz Schröder (72) aus Rönne.

Dann wurde der Verein Flieger-Flugzeuge-Schicksale (Telefon 04407 / 6156) auf die Absturzstelle aufmerksam. Sein Ziel: Teile von Kampfflugzeugen aufzuspüren und zu bergen und die Namen der vermissten Piloten herauszufinden. "Seit Mitte der 80er-Jahre haben wir 18 Fliegerschicksale aufgeklärt", sagt Werner Oeltjebruns (42).

An diesem Sonnabend laufen die Bergungsarbeiten langsam an. Die Pumpe kommt nicht gegen das Grundwasser an, eine größere muss her, später hilft die Feuerwehr Marschacht mit einer noch größeren Pumpe.

Aluminiumteile, Kabel, Glasteile kommen zum Vorschein, später das Armaturenbrett und erste Schädelteile. Die legt der Umbetter vom Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, Volker Schneider (54), in einen schwarzen Sarg aus Pappe.

Am frühen Nachmittag kommen dann zwei Maschinengewehre vom Typ 131 zum Vorschein und Munition der 13- und 20-Millimeter-Waffen. "Die kommen in einen Zerlegebetrieb nach Munster", sagt Heiko Riemer (42) vom Kampfmittelbeseitigungsdienst Niedersachsen, Hannover. "Dort wird die Waffe funktionsunfähig gemacht und kommt dann in ein Museum."

Am späten Nachmittag dann der große Fund: Die Lederkombination des Piloten, darin die Gebeine - sie wurden der Kriegsgräberstätte in Niedermarschacht übergeben. Ein Portemonnaie mit 80 Reichsmark und einer englischen 5-Pfund-Note. Die Erkennungsmarke liegt in der Brieftasche des Toten - sie kommt zur Deutschen Dienststelle nach Berlin.

Volker Schneider untersucht das Gebiss - "der Mann war 21 bis 26 Jahre alt". Sein Name steht auf dem Fallschirm: Ch. Schramm, Leutnant. Gestorben vor 58 Jahren am Ende eines sinnlosen Krieges.

erschienen am 25. Aug 2003 in Harburg

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

hikki
Roughly translated.
Sun Aug 31 16:25:34 2003
211.1.99.190

The last rest for second lieutenant Schramm
Elbmarsch: on the 29th April, 1945 the German pilot was shot down. Now amateur researchers found the machine and mortal remains.

From Andreas Schmidt

Krumse - a wheat field to the south of Krumse at the end of August, 2003: an excavator digs a four meter deep hole, kerosene smell lies in the air. Spectators put the question to themselves: What will bring this excavation in the light?

29th April, 1945, the war is lost long time ago: type of the fighter, Focke-Wulf 190 D 9 belonged to Jagdgeschwaders 26 ("Schlageter") in Uetersen start to the direction of Lauenburg on the Elbe. There the British army has formed a bridgehead against which the fighters should fight. Three German fighters did not return. They are shot down by British fighters.

"We have played at the fall place in the beginning of the 50s", remembers Gerhard Tillmann (71) from Ronne. At that time the area was still a moist pasture area. "With hook we pulled a few aluminum parts of the airplane from the hole and sold them to a scrap metal trader." Then grew - in the most true sense of the word - grass over the thing. In the 70s became from the pasture a field. "In the beginning of the 80s once more a man came from Winsen and recognized with the help of a Wunschelrute(magic stick that strikes a vein) to the fall place", says Franz Schroder (72) from Ronne.

Then Verein Flieger-Flugzeuge-Schicksale(association of thedestinies of airman-airplanes) (phone 04407 / 6156) on the fall place carefully. His purpose: to track down parts of fighter aircraft and to salvage and to find out the names of the missing pilots. "Since middle of the 80s we have cleared up 18 airman destinies", says Werner Oeltjebruns (42).

On this Saturday the salvage operations start slowly. The pump does not come by the ground-water, a bigger one must go here, later the fire department marched with a even bigger pump helps.

Aluminum parts, cables, glass parts come to light, later the instrument panel and the first skull parts. The reinterment of the people's alliance German war graves care, Volker Schneider (54), in a black coffin from cardboard lays them.

Then early in the afternoon two machine guns of the type 131 come to light and ammunition of 13mm and 20mm weapons. "They come to a Zerlegebetrieb(?) to Munster", says Heiko Riemer (42) of the fight means removal service Lower Saxony, Hannover. "There the weapon is made functional-incapable and then comes to a museum."

Late in the afternoon then the big finding: the leather combination of the pilot, in it the skeletons - they were handed over to the war graves site in Niedermarschacht. A purse with 80 Reichsmarks and an English 5-pound note. The iID tag lies in the wallet of the dead person - she comes to Deutschen Dienststelle to Berlin.

Volker Schneider examines the set of teeth - "The man was 21 to 26 years old". His name stands on the parachute: Ch. Scratch, second lieutenant. Deceased 58 years ago at the end of a pointless war.

appeared in 25. Aug in 2003 in Harburg


HTH

hikki

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

FrankieS
Re: German D9 found
Sun Aug 31 13:04:18 2003
62.156.21.83

They
http://com-de.com/wast/frame.htm

should know the truth.
The found I.D. plate of the pilot was sent to them.

bye

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

mark sheppard
Fw190 recovery
Tue Sep 2 14:03:40 2003
62.241.189.171

Hi all

Believe this was an amazing recovery in pastureland by the river. Undisturbed, complete, W.Nr and tactical code now known.

The pilot was definitely Schramm and he was in the aircraft. Name on parachute, leather skull cap, parachute and in his wallet.

As mentioned he was 'named' and buried in 1990. It looks as though this pilot might well have been on of his colleagues shot down on the same day in the same location.

Hopefully this will get sorted.

regards

MS

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Wybe Buising
wbuising@zonnet.nl
He 111 in Hermeskeil
Sat Sep 13 21:24:32 2003
62.59.15.228

Hi,
last week l visited the Airplane Museum in Hermeskeil (Germany) and to my supprise l found a He 111 parked outside among mostly post war planes. It was coded G1+FL indicating 3./KG55. According to the information it was a Spanish built type originating from 1939! Is there more information available on this plane?
Regards,

Wybe

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

hZoe
He 111 in Hermeskeil
Sun Sep 14 00:37:51 2003
80.137.56.6

Hi Wybe,
the Casa in Hermeskeil is serial no. 145, which
was originally B.2I-14 with Spanish Air Force.
It was to be seen at Frankfurt Airport on the
visitor terasse for years in the 80s, before
it was moved to Hermeskeil.
I think, it came from England to Germany in
the early 70s, but I am not sure.
Best, Horst

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Wybe Buising
thanks for yr info, will file this data. Reg. Wybe (nm)
Sun Sep 14 21:48:18 2003
62.59.8.154

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Schlichting
ME262 found near Hamburg
Thu Sep 18 17:52:18 2003
80.63.229.39

http://www.tnchamburg.de/

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Schlichting
Conflicting news
Fri Sep 19 10:14:05 2003
217.157.175.220

Conflicting news about this one, in this article it could be a 109.

http://www.mopo.de/nachrichten/102_panorama_43638.html

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Anders Näslund
German A/C found near Hamburg now identified
Fri Sep 26 14:35:51 2003
212.217.133.53

Pilot and a/c now identified..

http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2003/09/25/211937.html

///Anders

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Can anyone translate it ? (nm)
Fri Sep 26 14:58:06 2003
195.92.67.76

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders
try this..
Fri Sep 26 15:10:43 2003
212.217.133.53

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

///Anders

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave Wadman
Translation here
Fri Sep 26 15:44:26 2003
24.71.223.140

Only a quick one by Babelfish but interesting:


The message of the death of her man Hans received Irmgard H. on 10 December 1943. The message stood for typewriter writing on five centimeters high note, on it. And a sovereignty seal. Contents were scarce: First lieutenant H. is in the night from 3. to 4 December in the aerial combat pleases. Irmgard H. cried, as it its father the message of the circle line Neuruppin (Brandenburg) brought - she was not 22 years old even and widow. Nearly 60 years later. Irmgard H. is 81 years old, sits candle straight on the upholstered chair in its dwelling. She lives still in Neuruppin. She never married again. Before it on the couch table old documents and six current photos lie. They show the place in Ochsenwerder, at which experts discovered the wreck of a night fighter Ju 88-C in the past week - and the mortal remnants of the pilot. Irmgard H. does not cry, when she regards the photos. Although she knows that here her loved man Hans died. The first lieutenant was a pilot of the fallen night fighter. The flier widow holds her emotions under control. But their voice trembles, when it says quietly: "now I have certainty after the long time finally. I know that my Hans in its airplane died." It had the man, who originated from Bavaria, on a ball in Neuruppin knows learned, where it worked as a flight instructor. Wedding during the war, a child was born, on homeland vacation brought the pilot toy also. From the pile of old documents Irmgard H. pulls a letter. He is from 6 January 1944, a comrade of their man him had sent. It describes the last flight of the night fighter, the last minutes before the crash. Guenther Kulas was a bordfunker, it and the flight engineer from the machine with parachutes to save had been able itself. "at 1.45 o'clock we started and went immediately on height and on south course", wrote the radio operator. The night fighter, which was stationed in Denmark in Grove, had gotten an initial instruction direction Stade (Lower Saxony). From there direction Berlin, toward the hunt for hostile bombers should be. The radio operator describes in detail, how the night fighter shot two British airplanes of the type Lancaster and the crew observed the burning impacts of the bombers. Irmgard H.: "I had mean man seen at the end of of Octobers last. There it was on homeland vacation, was pleased at its small daughter, straight one year had become old." The daughter, today 60 years, sits in the living room beside her nut/mother. It read the letter innumerable marks. "terrible, the war", says it again and again. On the return flight of Brandenburg "the oil pressure showed suddenly only 20 litres oil on", continued to write the radio operator. Defense fire possibly met oil lines. The flight altitude amounted to only 2000 meters, there pilot Hans H. said: "we step out." The flight engineer was first, then the radio operator. "at the moment my jump saw I still, how your husband made institutes jumping off, by wanting to rise from its seat." Then the radio operator lost the night fighter from the eyes. With incipient crack of the daily it arranged that school children and farmer the area absuchten. Then it went to the machine, which about six kilometers of its jump place with the Spadenland an about four meter deep hole into a "field, which was rather soft", tore. Of Hans's H. one found no trace. "to in the evening 16 o'clock went the search, but without success". Irmgard H. suffered from sleeplessness. "I had fear that the soft soil was a moorland. I imagined again and again the fact that my man had perhaps survived the crash and painful in the moorland had sunk." Why the wreck of the night fighter and the corpse of the pilot were not saved at that time, is to today a mystery. Radio operator Kulas cannot solve it: It is briefly before end of war pleases. If the kriminaltechnischen investigations are terminated, the mortal remnants of the pilot are to be transferred.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Marvellous,Thanks chaps (nm)
Fri Sep 26 16:00:48 2003
195.92.67.67

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Nachtjäger Identification
Fri Sep 26 18:24:39 2003
198.26.120.13

Now, can any reader identify the unit, Werknummer, TKZ, or other particulars for the loss of this Ju 88C? The article
offers a day date and home airfield (Fl.Pl. Grove, Denmark).

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

mikka
Nightfighter near Ochsenwerder
Fri Sep 26 18:51:36 2003
217.255.105.4

The plane found near Hamburg-Ochsenwerder was :

Ju 88 C-6 serial: 360283 marking : D5+KW
IV./NJG 3 11. Staffel
pilot recoverd:

Oberleutnant Johannes Hiendlmayr

Uffz. Kulas and Obergefreiter Scholz bailed unhurt.

Plane take off in Grove/Danmark, shot down 2 Lancaster in the Berlin area, at the flight back an engine started fire maybe a case of the return fire of a tailgunner (?), the pilot ordered his crew to bail, he didn´t made it.

regards
mikka

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Junker
11/IV/NJG 3 from Grove/DK!
Fri Sep 26 18:56:26 2003
80.161.46.97

Ju 88C-6 wnr. 360283 D5+KW from 11/IV/NJG 3, at the time stationed at Grove airfield in Denmark. Crashed due to engine trouble after airbattle. Bordfunker und Bordwart bailed out unhurt.
Flugzeugführer Oblt. Johannes Hiendlmayr, Bordfunker Uffz. Günther Kulas and Bordwart Ogfr. Rudolf Scholz.
Junker

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lynn
Might be asking a lot here, but...
Fri Sep 26 20:57:35 2003
216.49.69.242

would we be able to know what radar array this aircraft might've been equipped with? I'd like to build a model of this aircraft, the sad and tragic human side of this story is worthy of commemoration...

Thank you for this info (both you and Junker)

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

gghopp
The type of radar carried ...
Fri Sep 26 21:46:29 2003
216.191.233.208

by the Ju 88C would, as a WAG, probably still have been the FuG 202.

The FuG 220 became available for use in October 1943, and so it could have made it through the pipeline by then, but the odds would tend to be against it.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders Näslund
Junker,mikka,,everyone else need some opinions...
Sun Sep 28 08:28:00 2003
212.217.133.53

Do you think Hiendlmayrs a/c really got damaged from
return fire by a bomber (maybe just an malfuction..
and did he really shoot down 2
bombers "in the Berlin area"...Berlin was only spoof raided by Mosquitos 3/4 dec -43 Liepzig was the target..
Berlin was raided 2/3 dec -43...

He did claim one possible two bombers on the night of
3/4 november -43...

Does someone know if
Bordfunker Uffz. Günther Kulas and Bordwart Ogfr. Rudolf Scholz survived the war??... I have lost the German wargraves websites...
Opinion on this??

///Anders

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

mikka
Ju 88 crew
Sun Sep 28 09:44:14 2003
217.255.111.150

Hi Anders,

can´t find a confirmation for the claims.
Uffz. Günther Kulas killed January 6/7th 1945 near Horsby/Danmark in a Ju 88 of III./NJG 2,
nothing further found about Rudolf Scholz.

regards
mikka

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders Näslund
claims..
Sun Sep 28 10:50:15 2003
212.217.133.53

claims for the nights 3/4 november and december -43

04.11.43 Ltn. Karl Rechberger 12./NJG 3 Stirling 05 Ost/JN-98 3200m 18.53 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.7
04.11.43 Oblt. Günter Rogge 12./NJG 3 4-mot 05 Ost/KA-68 3000m 19.03 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.8
04.11.43 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 Stirling EU-58 3000m 19.40 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.3
04.11.43 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 Stirling EU-83 1500m 20.02 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.4
04.11.43 Oblt. Werner Speidel 10./NJG 3 Wellington HG-33 1500m 20.18 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.5
04.11.43 Oblt. Johann Hiendlmayr 11./NJG 3 Stirling LG-7 1500m 20.46 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.3
04.11.43 Oblt. Johann Hiendlmayr 11./NJG 3 Stirling LQ-7 1500m 20.46 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.18
04.11.43 Oblt. Werner Speidel 10./NJG 3 Stirling IS-43c 1600m 21.11 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.6
december:
04.12.43 Major Werner Streib Stab/NJG 1 Lancaster Braunschweig 6300 m 01.15 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.4
04.12.43 No sighting 12./NJG 1 Halifax SW Leipzig 5500 m 01.20 C 2031/II Anerk Nr-
04.12.43 Major Werner Streib Stab/NJG 1 Lancaster ostwarts Leipzig 6000 m 01.50 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.5
04.12.43 Uffz. Brückersdorf 3./NJG 3 Halifax 500 m vor Stalförden 5500 m 02.44 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.36
04.12.43 Oblt. Martin 1./NJG 3 Halifax E Kleinkladen 5200 m 02.50 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.33
04.12.43 Ofw. Wilhelm Schmale 3./NJG 3 Halifax Achteberg 6000 m 03.00 C 2031/II Anerk Nr-
04.12.43 Oblt. Günter Köberich 11./NJG 3 Lancaster Uelzen-Celle-Schwarmstedt 6200 m 03.00 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.4
04.12.43 Fw. Hans Meissner 6./NJG 3 4-motor EH-75 NNE Hannover 5200 m 03.05 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.43
04.12.43 Hptm. Paul Szameitat 5./NJG 3 Lancaster NHannover 6200 m 03.18 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.23
04.12.43 Oblt. Bachmann 5./NJG 3 Lancaster E Hannover 6300 m 03.20 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.31
04.12.43 Fw. Heinz Oberheide 4./NJG 3 4-motor SW Leipzig 6500 m 03.22 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.21
04.12.43 Ltn. Herbert Koch 11./NJG 3 Lancaster Brandenburg-Burg-Odelzberg 6000 m 03.25 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.5
04.12.43 Hptm. Paul Szameitat 5./NJG 3 Lancaster zwischen Hamm-Wesendorf 6000 m 03.25 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.24
04.12.43 Oblt. Günter Köberich 11./NJG 3 Lancaster Vicinity Wittenberge 6000 m 03.31 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.6
04.12.43 Hptm. Paul Szameitat 5./NJG 3 Lancaster N Braunschweig 6300 m 03.36 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.25
04.12.43 Hptm. Paul Szameitat 5./NJG 3 Lancaster zwischen Wesend u Hannover 6000 m 03.41 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.26
04.12.43 Ltn. Achim Woeste Stab IV./NJG 3 Lancaster Salzwedel 5800 m 03.46 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.1
04.12.43 Oblt. Manfred Tischtau Stab I./NJG 5 Lancaster 290 Grad 6200 m 03.53 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.8
04.12.43 Oblt. Wulff 8./NJG 5 Stirling Leipzig 5500 m 04.13 C 2031/II Anerk Nr.2
04.12.43 n.n. 5./NJG 3 - - 19.35 C 2031/I Nr.106/44

no claims by Hiendlmayr 3/4 december -43
dont know if the rest of the crew colud file claims
whitout the pilot when he was missing...
///Anders