Luftwaffe Planquadrate map system - 6

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Roman
Planquadrat
Tue Sep 9 05:14:27 2003
212.14.163.99

Libe Freunde!
Ich bitte um die Hilfe.
Wo sind der Unfallort des zweite Flugzeuge:
26.07.1943 He111 II./KG53 Qu34642
08.09.1943 Ju52 1./TG3 Qu1264
Mit freundliches Grusen
Roman

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

LwFlieger
Planquandt Nummern
Tue Sep 9 17:18:28 2003
205.188.208.137

Unfortunately there is no known compilation of the Planquadrant numbers. However, by chance a member of the discussion board might be able to help you about a specific location and unit.

In the case of II./KG 53, on that date it was flying missions striking targets near Roslavl. It was involved in supporting Operation Zitadelle, after having come back from Germany for rest and re-equipment. It was possibly based at Olsufyevo (60 km NW of Bryansk) at the time.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Horst Weber
ho.weber@t-online.de
Planquadrate in West and East
Tue Sep 9 17:37:00 2003
217.230.76.34

Roman !

As LwFlieger mentioned, it is a little difficult, to find out the Planquadrat locations in 1943 in the East, since they had changed in the West some month ago and the system is quite well known and easily comparable onto a normal map, showing longtitudes and lattitudes.

Unfortunately for the historians, by some incidents, in the East, theold System (or prbably another grid system ???) survived for a number of month and flew into the daily reports.

It would be very helpful, if you could give a guess, where the 26 July 1943 incident could have occured. It seems, that Qu. means simply Plan-QUADRAT and the old system was still in use. If you have a guess, please provide me with it and I'll try to make a grid on a useful map and than we see hopefully further in the case. Of course, as LwFlieger mentioned, an original (Eastern) grid-map of the area would be most helpful.

Best regards,

Horst Weber

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
janbobek@email.cz
old system
Fri Sep 12 09:24:29 2003
213.246.78.70

Horst,

old system (PLQ numbers) was in use in the East until the end of the war.

Roman, I will try to check your PLQ over weekend.

regards

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Co de Swart NL
Planquadratenmap
Sat Sep 13 17:52:59 2003
213.17.62.153

Does the Don Caldwell/Les Butler shortly placed map via the JG 26 site bring any help?
Succes, Co

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
PLQ rough location
Mon Sep 15 13:12:01 2003
213.246.78.70

Hi,

I used Luftwaffe grid map issued in May 1942.
I think that it was Andrey Dikov who said earlier on this board that PLQ system changed in April 1943, but I can´t find differences between maps from 1941 – 1942 and maps from 1944 (late war map via webpage of Don Caldwell)

He 111 on 26.7.1943 II./KG 53 (should be based at Olsufjewo) the PLQ 34/6/4/2 seems to be best matching to area half way between Brjansk and Kletnja (master area 35ost) . PLQ 34/0/0/0 could be also 100 km south of Sevastopol (34ost), north of Bialystok, Poland (25ost), north of Wraza, Bugaria (24ost) etc.

Ju 52 from 1./TG 3 on 8.9.1943 PLQ 12/6/4/? – my best estimate is area cca 20 km southeast of Tschernigow (aprox 100 km nw of Kiew in master area 35ost), other locations seems to be nonsense (Turkey and Ladoga lake) or is far west in Poland or Yugoslavia.

Horrido

Jan

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Roman
Viele Dank
Thu Sep 25 16:36:57 2003
212.14.163.98

Meine Kameraden!
Viele dank fur Ihre wertvolle Information!
Roman

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
Create your own Luftwaffe Eastern Front Planquadrat map
Sat Nov 1 17:04:49 2003
81.224.233.216

The task of identifying the square grid mentioned in Luftwaffe documents presents a problem to many interested.

With the help of the information that I just posted to the Black Cross/Red Star website, it should be possible for anyone to create an own "Planquadrat map" of the Eastern Front.

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/planquadrat.htm

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
The original Luftwaffe "Planquadrat Map" on BC/RS Site
Sun Nov 2 17:49:55 2003
81.224.233.216

On what should have been my friend Alfred Grislawski's 84th birthday, I posted a small sample of the original Luftwaffe Square Grid Map to the Black Cross/Red Star site. This as an addition to the explanation of the Luftwaffe Square Grid Map's structure that I posted to the site yesterday. I'm sure this might be quite useful. Beware--it is a bit large, so for those with a "slow" connection, you'll have to be patient. Like always. . . ;-)

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/luftwaffemap.htm

In recognition of today's date, I chose a part of the map where the place can be found where Alfred Grislawski barely survived getting shot down by VVS Kapitan Shitikov during a mission with "Bubi" Hartmann over 59 years ago.

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/inmemoriam.htm

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Don Caldwell
The latest on the JG 26 site...
Tue Nov 4 18:48:51 2003
204.136.184.34

...( www.jg26.vze.com ) is an update to the Jaegergradnetzkarte, which now contains the Jagddivision boundaries as of 6 Mar 44, based on a map in the "Karlsruhe collection" at Maxwell AFB. Our map should be useful to wargamers or anyone trying to plot or locate specific combats.

Christer Bergstrom's post of the Eastern Front map now allows us to plot any LW activity, anywhere. Why the Eastern and Western fronts evolved different systems starting from the same Mercator projection remains a mystery. If Andreas Brekken's explanation confuses you as it always did me, it's probably because he includes definitions of all of the known subdivisions, some of which one or the other map system didn't use -- e.g., the Western system didn't use the Grosstrapez, while the Eastern system didn't use the Jagdtrapez. Also, the West used the famous double-letter code for the Mitteltrapeze, while the East used numbers.

As always, Les Butler welcomes your comments on the content of the JG 26 site. We know there are a few typos on the map, and continue to correct and update it.

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Gradnetzkarte
Wed Nov 5 07:18:07 2003
81.224.233.216

That is just great, Don! I wish more people would post news about updates to WW II-aviation related websites here.

BTW, did you receive the Graf & Grislawski book yet, Don?

All best,

Christer

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
updates
Wed Nov 5 18:08:16 2003
204.136.184.34

I too would like to see more notices of updates here. I have a selfish reason -- TOCH is the only site I try to check daily!

No, I haven't received my G&G book yet. Judy, are you reading this?

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Kari Lumppio
klumppio2frame.hut.fi
Eastern Jagdtrapetz (alphabets) & Nachtjagd light beacon Q
Wed Nov 5 13:30:45 2003
130.233.83.21

Hello!

As far as I know and understand Jagdtrapetz with alphabet identifications was used also in Eastern front.

I have a copy of map (Estonia-Luftflotte 1 from 1944) which shows the "ordinary" numbered grids, Jagdtrapetz double letter codes plus Finnish grid numbers.

IIRC somewhere around June 1944 for example 4./NJG100 started using alphabet locations for their claims (see Tony Wood files), suggesting use of Jagdtrapetz. JG5 used it even earlier and IIRC others too.

For what it is worth: there was also Finnish air observation detachments in Estonian coastal area. In their papers from 1944 somewhere there was mention to the effect that "also here air force (Luftwaffe) is taking over and forces them (german air observation units) using their grid system". Didn't write it down as it was not nor is my research subject. In Finland there seems to have been two grid systems in use too (Air Force and observation units) with the ensuing arguments and quarrels.


I would also like to ask a question about the light beacon used in nighttime to help Luftwaffe aircraft in navigation. Did a light beacon send in morse code the two letter code of the grid where said beacon was located? Namely there are anecdotal references to a light beacon sending "PU" and it was located within grid (or near the border) "UP" (Narva area, Estonia).


Thanking in advance,
Kari

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
andrebre@online.no
Jägermeldenetz vs Gradnetzmeldeverfahren
Thu Nov 6 11:28:29 2003
80.213.3.94

Hi, Don!

I feel I have to comment on Your entry.

The article I wrote was an article on the Gradnetzmeldeverfahren and its theoretical basis.

I feel You (referring to Don Caldwell's message) are wrong in stating : Western system didn't use the Grosstrapez and Eastern system didn't use the Jagdtrapez.

Of course they did, if you broaden the horizon from only looking at the Jagdflieger units in one particular front area.

The standard use of the Gradnetzmeldeverfahren was to use it without any 'modifications', while the Jägermeldenetz was just that, an adaptation primarily used in conjunction with the defence against the western allies onslaught, as stated in my article. In addition, the Jägermeldenetz might have been easier to use, and generate fewer errors when transferring messages through the communications systems.

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Co de Swart
J-Gradnetz/NJ Gradnetz
Fri Nov 7 09:47:25 2003
213.17.63.115

Anything to say about 'differences' between the J-Netz and the Nachtjagd-Gradnetz.

B.a.: A Me110 downed a bomber on 23.05.1943, crashing(?) in 'B 1 '.
Can anyone explain this B1 ??

Merci,
Co de Swart

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Morten Jessen
jessen@doek.dk
Planquadrat map positions in the Mediterranean
Sun Nov 9 21:07:05 2003
213.237.106.254

Hi All,

I have been trying to pin point two Planquadrat map positions. They are both over the sea, somewhere near the Tunisian coastline. The points are:
- Pl.Qu. 08422
- Pl.Qu. 13 Ost N/0851

Any information (coordinates, map scans etc.) that can help me find these two positions will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

All the best,
Morten

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

FredoHara
How to read a map?
Sun Nov 23 22:24:39 2003
193.249.16.207

Hello,
When i took Losses of JG 2 by tony wood's & and i took on 16/08/41 the carsh of Fw Fritz Mönke, i can read Pl.Qu 1014/15W (east of Cherbourg)
I've found a german map in a book where i can understand and read the "15W", the "10" of 1014 which correspond i think to the number 10 on the map at the east of Cherbourg BUT what is the "14" of 1014? Should i read something else on the map? should i read 14 or 1 and 4?
Thank for your help
Fred

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

heinz
german map
Mon Nov 24 12:18:47 2003
172.176.89.87

go to this site for the map http://jg26.vze.com/

and here for a explanation http://www.stormbirds.com/eagles/research/gradnetz/gradnetz.html

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

fredo ohara
Thanks!!!!! (nm)
Mon Nov 24 22:16:16 2003
193.249.228.166

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Francesco M. Lentini
Luftwaffe gradnetz Sicily
Sun Feb 1 16:22:23 2004
151.24.168.135

Where I can find the Luftwaffe fighter grid (Luftwaffe gradnetz) of Sicily and Straits of Sicily.

Thank you

Francesco

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Co de Swart
Gradnetz
Tue Feb 3 20:22:33 2004
62.234.125.119

Try the renewed Tony Wood sites/ Les Butler
(a.o.. via the JG 26-site)
Co.