AFHRA & NARA Missing Air Crew Reports

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Carlos Herrera
Faulty MACR Listing
Sun Jul 5 13:53:00 1998

This is a question which I have thought about for some time and have not been able to come up with a good answer.

I have a listing of the Missing Air Crew Report listing in chronological order from when the USAAF began listing them, late 1942. After looking at this listing in detail, it is evident that there are many more missing airplanes than are listed in this so-called official record. For example, on July 25,1944, the 332nd FG lost two P-51 s to Bf-1 09s over Linz, Austria. These losses are not listed in the MACR listing. There are many examples of such omissions, I have personally found.

Why are there such gaps? From all I have read, all personnel lost in combat were required to have a record filled 48 hrs after the loss. The chronological listing was obviously completed after the end of WWII, when all the records should have been present. Yet it appears that some losses (15-20%?) were not submitted to higher headquarters. All records are faulty to some degree, but this seems a large error.

Would anyone like to comment?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

John R. Manrho
MACR listing
Tue Jul 7 11:40:25 1998


Hi Carlos,

I presume you mean the MACR listing which can be obtained at the USAFHRC at Maxwell. I bought mine in 1989 on microfilm (Roll # A1114). It is well known that several (at least several hundreth) MACR's are NOT listed in this list and also NOT in the lists which are arranged numerically by serial number, date, machine gun serial numbers, etc. This does not mean that they do not EXIST!. The MACR's were written and are actually also in many cases available at the National Archives, but for a reason unknown to me they do not appear in the numerical listings. If you have additional info on the crew (name, rank and serial), the National Archives can find them for you. This is the way I ordered several of them.


[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 26 July 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:




Bart
B-17 lost over Cologne 10 Jan 45
Mon Aug 7 21:34:53 2000


Is there anyway I can confirm the loss of B-17 42-37936 "The All American Girl" over or near Cologne on 10 Jan 1945 by Luftwaffe fighters. A friend's brother was on
the aircraft and all 10 crew members were KIA. No remains or wreckage were found. Is there a data base that shows individual engagements during the war? Thanks
for the help. Bart

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:




Rabe Anton
Re: B-17 s/n 42-37936
Tue Aug 8 04:16:06 2000


Bart,

The B-17 s/n 42-37936 belonged to 351st BS, 100th BG.
Her squadron code letters were E P • M. Pilot was Lt. John J. Dodrill. She crashed near Gladbach, Germany, the loss being attributed to AAA and fighters. Nine x
KIA Missing Air Crew Report No. 11744 applies.

You may obtain the MACR from the National Archives and
Records Administration at College Park, Maryland. Further
details about the casualty status of the crew must come
from the individual casualty files, which can be obtained
from the Total Army Personnel Command in Alexandria,
Virginia.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:


Bob Korkuc
MACRs...
Tue Sep 5 21:04:56 2000


Question: When a B-17 bomber went down, a Missing Aircraft Crew Report was filed on the loss--the Bomb Group would initiate the documentation on the loss. If a
Bomber was lost despite the fact that they were aided by Allied fighters, would the fighter group have issued a report on the incident also?

Thanks,

Bob

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:


Rabe Anton
Re: MACRs
Wed Sep 6 00:43:33 2000


Bob,

The requirement for a Missing Air Crew Report (MACR) applied if a crew member or passenger went missing in a combat zone. Period. The intention was to report the
fact of missing status. Reporting of a loss would have
been affected only by (1) commencement of the MACR
program (very few before July 1943) or (2) location
of the loss (non-combat zones entailled mishap reports).

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:


Bob Korkuc
Fighter Group Reports
Wed Sep 6 20:20:22 2000


RA,

If a fighter group assited a crippled B-17 but the plane was still downed. Did the fighter group have any documentation about the loss of a particular plane? Or would
the individual fighter pilot just have filled out a report for his work of that day? Was any effort made to correlate the MACR with the fighter pilot's report?

One of my uncle's crewmates father's had tried to understand the battle loss of his son. The family gave me his notes and in the report it indicated that fighters had
attempted to assist my uncle's plane but the father was unable to determine the fighter group. Thus I was wondering if I could find a report written up on the loss of the
B-17 but from the perspective of the fighter group.

Bob

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:


Frank Olynyk
MACRs
Thu Sep 7 00:18:25 2000


It is possible that the Narrative Mission Report of a fighter squadron, or group, would mention escorting a damaged bomber; but it was not a requirement of the
reporting system. It is more likely to be mentioned in the MACR, which typically had one or more pages devoted to the last known sighting(s) of the missing aircrew
(ie, their airplane). These are found on the microfiche of the MACR.

Frank.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Christopher
Salvage Battalions
Tue Oct 24 05:51:07 2000


Does anyone know where to start looking for a copy of a salvage report? I am specifically looking for a copy of the
Luftwaffe salvage report for this B-17:

A/C # on tail: 239943
Lost: May 7,1944
Location: Area near Celle, and Hoenbostel, Germany.
Any help would really be appreciated as this was my uncle's
Fortress.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Phil
Lassie come home
Tue Oct 24 14:30:56 2000


Hello Christopher

The airplane of your uncle belonged to the 401st BG 612nd BS #42-39943 code SC-F
“Lassie come home” it crashed near Hohenebostel (D) cause the heavy Flak
The MACR 4587
Pilot 2nd Lt Grimmett Browning O. (KIA)
CP 2nd Lt Leach John R. (KIA)
N 2nd Lt Haines Raymond K. (POW)
B 2nd Lt Koontz Charles G. (KIA)
TT S/Sgt Platt John W. (KIA)
RO S/Sgt Lauer Wilbur C. (KIA)
BT Sgt Spiotti John (KIA)
LW Sgt Yeager Calvin E. (KIA)
RW Sgt Humphrey Rosoe C. (KIA)
TG Sgt Slaughter William J.

Try to obtain the MACR at the AFHRA and ask for the German report attached (K.U) you will have all you want to know .
Phil

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Tom S.
Airfields in Germany
Wed Nov 22 17:41:23 2000


Where can I find a list of WW II Luftwaffe airfields and the towns in Germany where they were located?

My father tells a story of a U.S. fighter strafing a German airfield that pranged into the ground because he was too low. The pilot crashed on the airfield and was captured.
Fortunately for him, the war ended the next day. The field would have been in southern Germany, possibly in the French Occupation Zone.

Hope someone can help. Thanks.

Tom S.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Matt Hubert
re: your query
Wed Nov 22 18:09:05 2000


Tom - as far as the airfield specifics, I don't recall off the top of my head. I mean, books have been written on these things, unfortunantly I do not remember which heh heh. I
can say that there were no MACRs filed the day before VE Day (or on VE day) in the ETO. There were a few issued in the PTO however (war was still raging there). If he
was shot down and captured, there is a good possibility there should be a MACR on the aircraft (very rarely are they missed, and pretty much every a/c shot down either
behind enemy lines or in situ where the definate status is unknown has a MACR).

The earliest prior to VE day would probably be on May 3rd. Two a/c were lost in the ETO that day. One was a P-47D(?) from 406th FG, 9th AF which is listed as having
gone down in Germany; MACR #14355 (the last number could be an eight as well; it's tough to read the copied MACR index...the original isn't much better). The other a/c
was a CG47A transport listed lost in the Med, but you mentioned a fighter so that is probably your best bet.

On May 10th, a P-38 went down in Germany as well; I do not know if this was due to late hostilities or if it was due to mechanical problems. The MACR # is unfortunantly
illegible, BUT, you could contact the 67th FG association and they might be able to help you out.

My money says it was probably the P-47. I gotta believe a MACR was filed in this case (stranger things have happened, and it is possible one was not filed, but I doubt that
is the case). The MACR will list last known location and/or location of loss. You can request one via National Archives in College Park, MD. It will be a LONG time before it
gets there tho. if you dont mind private researchers, there are several online, but some of them have a lot of backlog and may not be able to get to it for a few months
(which is probably better than what it will take at NARA).

Best wishes in your research,

Matt

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Jaap Woortman
Airfields in germany
Wed Nov 22 21:49:04 2000


Try:
Fliegerhorstkommandanturen und Flugplätze der deutschen Luftwaffe 1935-1945. Martiello. Biblio Verlag. Osnabrück. 2000.
Fliegerhorste und Einsatzhäfen der Luftwaffe. Ries, Dierich. Motorbuch Verlag. Stuttgart.1993.

Jaap

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

marc poole
Luftwaffe claims July 19, 1944
Thu Nov 23 21:13:31 2000


Does anyone have any information on combats or claims in the Munich area on July 19, 1944? I'm trying to help some bomber crews (384th BG) get their stories down
regarding the mission to Hollsriegelskreuth, Germany. Any help is appreciated-

Marc Poole

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Matt Hubert
re: 384th on 7/19/44
Thu Nov 23 22:29:15 2000


Marc - I do not know anything on the Luftwaffe side, but if you haven't gotten this MACR info, it may be helpful in further research. I know you run a good official page on the
group, so you probably have some of this info (perhaps all of it; I don't know so heh heh).

The following aircraft were lost (had MACRs filed) on 7/19/44 from the 384th BG:

1) B-17G #42-97178 Germany MACR 7279

2) B-17G #42-97237 Germany MACR 7280

3) B-17G #42-97449 Germany MACR 7261

Mission 482: 1,082 of 1,242 B-17s and B-24s and 670 of 761 P-38s, P-47s, and P-51s dispatched, operating in 5 forces, attack targets in W and SW Germany including 2
plants producing hydrogen peroxide (an ingredient in V-weapon fuels), a chemical plant, 2 aircraft factories, 4 ball bearing plants, 6 marshalling yards, 4 airfields, and a river
dam; 17 bombers and 7 fighters are lost. Attacks in the Munich area are followed, within 90 minutes, by Fifteenth Air Force attacks. 731 fighters, operating in 19 separate
units support the bombers; 8 of these units afterwards strafe ground targets, including parked aircraft,locomotives and rolling stock, and road vehicles. The bombers claim
6-4-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; the fighters claim 17-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 38-0-14 on the ground.

Best regards,

Matt H

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Matt Hubert
re: German claims that day...
Fri Nov 24 00:58:22 2000


Were there any Mustang claims by that Gruppe that day? I have a few P-51s registered as lost that day:


1) P-51B 4th FG, 8th AF #43-6463 Germany MACR 6828

2) P-51B 355th? FG, 8th AF #43-6?38 Germany MACR 6838 (this line is sort of hard to read but I think it is correct)

There were a few other Mustangs lost that day elsewhere in the ETO (France and Italy IIRC).

Best Regards,

Matt

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: LK in München Area - 19.07.44
Fri Nov 24 03:34:41 2000

Matt,

Reschke, JG 301/302, pp. 106-110, does not include any claims against N.A. P-51 Mustangs for 19 July 1944.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

C. Herrera
Mustang Losses-7-19-44
Fri Nov 24 23:03:18 2000


Matt,

According to group histories the 4th FG loss was due to a Bf-109 attack, while the 355 FG loss was due to mechanical difficulty.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Gordon
REQ: info on LW or R.A. use of P-38 in combat
Sun Dec 3 06:37:50 2000


The following is a copy of information posted on another newsgroup. I am relatively certain that this has been discussed before and would like comments. I won't include my
own thoughts at this time, but thanks in advance.

v/r
Gordon
================================================== ==========
"On the other hand, captured aircraft were sometimes flown without
changing their markings, and one such provided one of the few
effective combat missions of the YB-40 (the 'assault' version of the
B-17, with a second upper turret, doubled waist guns, and a chin
turret that later became standard equipment in the B-17). An Italian
pilot was using a captured P-38 to shoot down damaged US bombers on
their way back to bases in North Africa; he would listen to radio
traffic, and fly out to a damaged bomber to 'escort' it home. With a
friendly fighter escorting them, the bomber crew would relax, allowing
him to press home his attack and shoot down the plane quickly. After a
survivor of one of these attacks was recovered, a YB-40 was added to a
bomber group, and turned back with radio traffic suggesting it had
engine trouble. The Italian pilot showed up in his P-38, and knowing
that no P-38s were operating that day, the gunners in the YB-40
allowed him to close in to size up his target before blowing him out
of the sky -- essentially, doing to him what he had been doing to
them."

Please comment.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Ferdinando D'Amico
Re: REQ: info on LW or R.A. use of P-38 in combat
Sun Dec 3 16:37:09 2000


Ok, let's start again... http://www.lwag.org/ubb/wink.gif

The only P-38 ever owned by the Regia Aeronautica was captured on 12 June 1943 in Sardinia where a ferrying US pilot landed by mistake due to the malfunctioning of the
compass. Soon brought to the Italian Test Center of Guidonia (near Rome), this aircraft was flown *with Italian markings* by Col. Angelo Tondi (Chief test pilot of the center)
in half a dozen scrambles against USAAF bombers attacking Rome and Central Italy's targets.

On 11 August 1943 Col. Tondi intercepted off the coast the B-17F s/n 42-30307 of 419th BS, 301st BG and shot down it at 12.00 hrs*. This was the only successful
interception completed by this aircraft and soon after the P-38 was grounded due to the bad quality of the Italian petrol that had corroded the fuel tanks.

* (cfr. Missing Air Crew Report n.490 available at the National Archives)

All the above is obviously proved not only by photographic evidence but also by the accounts of Col. Tondi and by the documents of the Guidonia Test Center reporting all
the scrambles effected by the P-38. This material is available to the researchers at the Italian Air Force Historical Branch.

I would like to add that the recurring story of the Italian-flown P-38 and the use of a YB-40 to counter it has been based only on "rumors" during the war, that in turn gave life
to some "humorous" (in my view) accounts reporting even that the P-38 was flown by a "daring Italian pilot, Lieutenant
Guido Rossi"... who had had a love affair with the wife of the YB-40 pilot...!

That "material" was seized acritically by Martin Caidin and used in his works, so the tale went on and on...

This is only an example of the damage that a lack of serious historical research can do in spreading "urban myths"...

Just my 2 cents...

All the best

Ferdinando D'Amico

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Lynn Ritger
Info requested on B-17 shootdown 6 Mar 44
Mon Jan 1 16:44:48 2001


Hi all-

Trying to locate information related to the downing of B-17G "Round Trip", 42-97527 of 92 BG, 327 BS shot down on a Berlin mission, 6 Mar 44...MACR numbers, possible
victor (Flak or Jagdwaffe?), any other info welcomed- thanks in advance!

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
B-17
Mon Jan 1 17:07:51 2001


"Target Berlin", by Ethell and Price, Appendix E gives this information:
Pilot: 1st Lt. R. Townsend
Shot down by 10.5 cm guns of Heavy Flak Abeilung 231 at Oythe near Vechta at 2:31 pm. Aircraft broke up in the air and only the tail gunner, S/Sgt O> Maiocco, bailed
out and taken prisoner. Remaining crewmwn killed.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lynn Ritger
Thanks a ton, Dick...
Mon Jan 1 18:03:15 2001


I'll pass this on to his grandson, and I'm sure he'll appreciate this as well. Thanks again!

Happy New Year,

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Phil
#42-97527
Mon Jan 1 22:10:57 2001


Hello Lynn
This aircraft #42-97527 was presumed shot down near Oythe due at the flak
The MACR 2996
Pilot 1st Lt Townsend Rex M. (KIA)
CP 2nd Lt Swanson Gunnar T. Jr. (KIA)
N 2nd Lt Kinsella Kenneth R. (KIA)
B 2nd Lt Ballmer Ralph H. (KIA)
TT T/Sgt Horton Harry J. (KIA)
RO T/Sgt Jensen Ingvard A. (KIA)
BT Sgt Bedenk William F. (KIA)
LW S/Sgt Elowitz David (KIA)
RW S/Sgt Degroat Harold W. (KIA)
TG S/Sgt Maiocco Orlando D. (POW)13124864 STALAG LUFT 4
Phil

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lynn Ritger
Thanks, Phil...this adds even more info!
Mon Jan 1 22:51:26 2001


Again, I'm sure Harry Horton's grandson will be glad to know more of this incident.

All the best,

Lynn

[TerryMassickSR]

MACR for March 31, 1943....Looking for a MACR on my, Uncle...Lt. Francis M. Molloy,,82nd Fighter Group,,95th Fighter Squadron..Shotdown and lost on, March 31, 1943, over the Mediterranean...NARA, replied, "none in existence"...Just checking, in case, there might be information elsewhere....Thanks very much.....