Potential hidden away German records in the USA

[Richard T Eger]

This extremely interesting subject I believe started with this notice on the LWAG site by Andreas Brekken. Andreas then posted a reference to this notice on 12 O'Clock High!, which really got the ball rolling. This then spread to some very interesting emails which I have received. This will be a task and a half to try to put together a logical thread. I'll start with the LWAG posting:

Andreas Brekken
andreabr@notam.uio.no
Administrator
posted 15 March 2001 07:23

Dear Sirs!

Upon my return from Freiburg I want to get You all started on a new Holy Grail search.

Several of us have seen the bad quality of the above mentioned microfilms, some of them are not even readable at
all.

I was asked by others to check the quality of the "originals" in Freiburg, and didn't even have to do that....

There was a note on the glass window of the office in the Benutzersaal, excusing the bad quality, and telling the
story of the origin of these films (and a hint to were the originals might be).

The films kept at BA/MA in Freiburg come from the US. The staff at BA/MA has repeatedly asked the US
representatives to release the originals to a firm to make proper copies, but has not been successful this far.

This suggest that those among us with possibilities to go into the archival systems in the US should do this in order
to at least establish were these records are kept, and also maybe WHY they cannot be released for proper
reproduction.

Regards,

Andreas Brekken


[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Abschussmeldungen, microfilms in the Bundesarchiv
Thu Mar 15 12:26:49 2001


Hi, gang.

I have just posted a topic regarding the microfilms of Abschussmeldungen at the BA/MA Freiburg to the LWAG site.

Please visit at:

http://www.lwag.org

and by the way, Freiburg WAS interesting!

Andreas

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
caldwell@quik.com
Too bad Indiana Jones is a fictional character...
Thu Mar 15 14:22:01 2001


...or we could send him after your "Holy Grail."

My cynical estimate, Andreas, is that BA-MA has fed you a line, and you swallowed it. I, too, have seen the famous "message under the glass". I've been asking for
specifics -- who, where, when -- for more than five years, with no luck. The two logical US archives, the USAFHRA at Maxwell and the NARA in DC, profess to know
nothing of any German victory claims documents, either in paper or microfilm form.

We'll need to get much more specific to find anything in the USA. The microfilm archivist at Freiburg promised to go thru their "administrative files" for the 1960s to find out
where the supposed originals were supposedly sent, but I've heard nothing. Perhaps there's an expert on the US archives reading this post who will take up the quest.

PS -- Do these C-Dokumente have RL-Bestaende?

Horrido!

Don Caldwell

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
The holy grail
Thu Mar 15 14:42:03 2001


Hi, Don.

Well, they only have the C numbers as You and I have seen. The message I read was dated September 2000. Maybe they renew it now and then to keep us interested?

The only further "clue" I have is the reference to similar documents in the Von Rohden collection. (to be specific it has reference "4376/1407" in this collection, and the
"name" of this part of the collection is "Abschussmeldungen").

I haven't been able to access this collection yet, but I have found reference to it on the Internet on the NARA site. It certainly would suggest that some kind of information
regarding this topic made it across the sea at some time.

Herhudt von Rohden was as far as I know a high ranking officer from the historical branch of the RLM? who was given the task to analyze the Luftwaffe's actions during
WWII.

So, maybe he was the one who kept the Holy Grail?

And hey, I have probably somewhere between 30 and 60 years still to waste on this stuff..... and maybe one day I get lucky and find something of real interest to the
community?

Have a nice day, I am off to France for the weekend.

Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

G.R.Morrison
gmorr@csd.k12.nh.us
von R's Abschussmeldungen
Thu Mar 15 15:36:46 2001


Now don't get excited! ;-)
Some time ago I spent several days going through 'as many' of these rolls as I could. The contents are a mish-mash, with no 'logical' order -- or even relationship between
one series of frames and another. I did see some intriguing things, but also much -- for me -- 'junk,' such as a speech by Goering urging that Nazi values be maintained...
However, I did indeed come across a VERY few documents, including an eyewitness corroboration for a B-17 shoot-down by III/JG 3. The 'names' I recognized included
Alfred Surau, Ekkehard Tichy, Heinz Lange and Walter Dahl. The last two were the 'signers' of the documents, and as a curiousity, I noticed that the further up the chain of
command, the less-legible your signature.

These documents got me excited to continue looking, but alas, I'm afraid they were the 'singletons' in this collection. Remember, a great deal DID get burned.

Sorry to disappoint, GRM

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bob Korkuc
rek@korky.mv.com
III./JG 3 B-17 Downing
Sun Mar 18 19:20:33 2001


Hi George,

Long time no talk. I was interested in this reference. Do you recall the date of the downing?

Also, since I came to you for questions on 381st BG B-17 42-37786 some years ago, I am proud to say that I confirmed that Curt Clemens of the 8th Staffel of JG 3
claimed credit for downing my uncle's plane on 25 Feb 1944.

Also, I was fortunate that I was able to locate the Clemens family in Germany and obtain photos of Curt Clemens and his ME-109.

Hope you are well!

Bob Korkuc
8 Pilgrim Ave
Merrimack, NH 03054
rek@korky.mv.com

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Xtrav
Re: The holy grail
Thu Mar 15 20:13:48 2001


You might get lucky. The London Daily Mail just published a set (out of 400) of previously unknown photos of U564 on patrol. They have been in a Yorkshire attic since
1944 after being 'liberated' from Brest.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Hldeziv@aol.com
The Holy Grail - Another Clue
Thu Mar 15 23:06:02 2001


In 1989, while visiting the Microform Reading Room at the Library of Congress trying to track down some missing rolls from the microfilmed von Rohden Collection, I was
told something very curious yet interesting and wholly believable by some staff who had been with the LofC for 30 years or so. According to them, the Library of Congress
maintains a huge warehouse in Lanham, Maryland, not far over the DC line. In that warehouse are hundreds of boxes of historical material from the WWII era, including
documents and microfilms. Much of this is said to be of Axis orgin. The LofC has never been able to muster sufficient staff and funds to uncrate and catalogue the material,
most of which was turned over to the Library between 1947 and 1950 by various military and government agencies.

Other material of the same sort is still in the possession of the military intelligence community and the CIA and has been reportedly "lost" in their warehouses. Archivists
from NARA have been at these agencies for years trying to get them to identify the material and release it to the National Archives. Dr. Tim Mulligan in NARA's Textual
Reference Branch can confirm this.

It has always been my contention that some truly interesting and useful documentation on the Luftwaffe is among this material, including items that many of us have
considered "lost" for all time.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
egerrt@dmv.com
"Lost" Archives
Fri Mar 16 03:53:04 2001


Dear Larry, et al,

What you say makes sense. All I can think of is the last scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark". It is probably prophetically true.

I have a book edited by Robert Wolfe entitled "Captured German and Related Records", A National Archives Conference, Ohio University Press, Athens, Ohio, c. 1974,
ISBN 8214-0172-6. The conference, itself, was held Nov. 12-13, 1968. It has been a long time since I reviewed the book. My vague memory is that the meeting was the
swan song for Wolfe and probably, after his retirement, the whole effort to keep things tracked probably went into disarray. Again, that's a vague, vague memory. But, the
book might provide some clues. Unfortunately, it was published 27 years ago and things tend to get moved around and forgotten. So, the thought that those wonderful
records remain hidden in a government warehouse, ala "Raiders of the Lost Ark", seems a reasonable likelihood to me.

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Re: "Lost" Archives
Fri Mar 16 16:57:42 2001


Hi Richard,

Your comments are Right-on.
Incidently, Robert Wolfe was still Chief of NARA's Captured German Records Branch into the late 1980's. Today, he's retired of course but is still active as an advisor and
consultant for a special presidential advisory board on Nazi economic war crimes ("lost" Jewish bank accounts in Switzerland; reparations for former slave laborers, missing
or stolen art treasures, etc.)that was ordered formed by Clinton in 1999. Wolfe has gotta be 81 or 82 at least. He is also still on the board of directors of the World War Two
Studies Group (formerly the American Committee on the History of the Second World War), which is a prestigeous academic group that promotes the study of various
aspects of the war.
(Larry)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
Re.: Lost Archives
Fri Mar 16 21:14:05 2001


Dear Larry,

Is there any way to contact Wolfe to get a lead as to where these archives might be? If anyone would know, he would.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Re: Re.: Lost Archives
Fri Mar 16 23:47:34 2001


Dear Richard,

It is unlikely that Wolfe would know, since the records in question went directly to the Library of Congress without passing through NARA. However, there was one archivist
at NARA who had information on the subject, a George Wagner, but he passed away about 15 years ago. I did ask the venerable John Taylor, who is around 80 and still
works at NARA having started there in 1947, if you can imagine, and he said that Wagner was the only one of the NARA staff who had a good feel for those documents that
had gone to the LofC. But I think I do have Wolfe's current address, which I could give to you off-line, it's just that I don't think it would do you much good. Believe me, I tried
to follow this thread to its end back there between 1989 and 1992, but I got no further than what I have already said. Your very best shot on this now is Dr. Tim Mulligan. He
has morphed into the most knowledgeable, hard-working and devoted of the German documents archivists at NARA and frequently writes articles on the subject in
scholarly journals. He is also a world-class authority on Soviet Eastern Front tactical and strategic radio intelligence, U-Boat Warfare (which is his main interest) along with
several other subjects. He is fluent in German and has been working with the captured German records at NARA since 1980 or so.
(Larry)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Hector
Nicklhector@hotmail.com
So where did you get your info
Sun Mar 18 06:54:27 2001


Hi Don,
I am compiling my own private list of German claims and trying to match them with Allied known losses. Where did you go to get all of the excellent info in your books if
this source can't help people like you or me, or have I misunderstood something.
I have been given the address for the Bundesarchiv Militaerarchiv and Herrn Willi Goebel the historian by the nice people at the Laatzen museum. Mr Goebel has told me he
will take a long time before he can help me. What else do you suggest.
I hope you can help me. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!

Don Caldwell
The victory lists for I/JG 26 & II/JG 26 survived...
Sun Mar 18 23:57:20 2001


...by the units (not Berlin). Priller got them and eventually passed them on to the BA-MA, where they were filed properly with the rest of his research material, as "JG 26"
documents. My claims database for the Stab/JG 26, III/JG 26, and IV/JG 26 was put together over many years, one-by-one. The victory claims microfilms that Andreas has
just visited in Freiburg have helped me fill in the blanks, even though they're totally illegible in parts. The BA-MA "found" these in the early 1990s, but they have apparently
had them since the 1960s. This is not surprising to anyone who has had much dealing with the government archives of any nation.

Horrido!

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Hector
well now, that explains a lot...
Mon Mar 19 05:43:59 2001


Dear Don,
thanks for your answer. I always wondered where a fellow would get that MUCH information from and assume, that this is the way for ALL units (i.e. that Prien got his info
much the same way)?

What do you suppose are the possibilities for listing the victories of such "impossible" units such as JG 52 and JG 54? Could one even BEGIN to do this?
- Look forward to your answer on that one. Many people ask me that one because I am compiling a chronological unit by unit list of every victory I can get my hands on.
Thanks again,
Nick

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bob Korkuc
BA/MA paper records in US
Sun Mar 18 19:12:32 2001


I too have been down this path.

The researchers at the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg are being told that the records that they have in microfilm are all in paper somewheres in the USA.

I am going to ask my researcher, a very good one, if he got anymore information on their whereabouts.

Note the National Archives at College Park no nothing about them and my inquiry of Maxwell has proved fruitless also.

Thus I too am still searching!

Bob Korkuc

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Richard T. Eger
"Missing" material
Thu Feb 27 04:35:51 2003
162.33.246.86

Dear fellow researchers,

I'd like to throw an idea out for some discussion. Most of us know the classic that the Luftwaffe loss records for 1944 are missing or don't exist. Then there is the contingent that says that only 3% of the Luftwaffe records survived the war.

Now, you go to the PRO, IWM, BA/MA, NARA II, AFHRA, or the National Records Center in Suitland, Maryland. You dive into records others have seen - maybe, except that, frankly, the records are so vast that there certainly remain many, many records that haven't seen a researcher's eyes since WW II, waiting to be discovered. These are the ones that have been cataloged or, at the very least, are accessible to the public.

But, beyond these, what about the "missing" records? I'm not talking about "missing" in the classic sense of something having gotten lost or destroyed, but records packaged up neatly which simply sit in archives or government warehouses pining away for someone to catalog them.

I'm beginning to get a bit of an inkling of this and, quite frankly, it is raising my blood pressure a bit. I just thought I'd toss this out to see if others are familiar with such situations and might like to put in their two cents. Who knows, with enough information brought to hand, there might even be a way to find these missing "Arks of the Covenant" in those huge government warehouses!

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From further within the thread on TOCH!:

Walt Morgan
Records
Thu Feb 27 15:33:49 2003
209.193.81.89

Sad but true. The US Government does the same thing. I know of a particular building in Suitland Maryland where the entire contents were disposed of because they wanted the space for something else. Naval records I believe. In another incident a museum in the DC area had so much stuff that they didn't have room for it and it was sitting in a warehouse rotting. As for other archives,sad to say, the same will eventually happen to them also.
Mainly because of lack man power, and the lack of interest, to catalogue them. If any thing is found it will probably be done by some outside researched, who manages to gain access to the records, and who knows what he's looking for. Or by accident by someone looking for something else.
I have tried to find some particular photo intrepretation reports of Naval targets for years and no one seems to know if they still exhist must less where they are. Certainly the National Archives doesn't seem to know.
I have found thinga in the Library of Congress that they didn't even know they had and wasn't catalogued. I was told about one such document by someone outside the LOC who did know about it and even where it was located.
I've been waiting for some great revelation of records from Russia but so far relatively very little has come out of the former Soviet Union.
It's a sad situation that's not unique to the US and probably other war archives as well.

Walt