Hermann Graf & Alfred Grislawski, by Christer Bergström & Vlad Antipov - 4

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
Updates on the Graf & Grislawski site
Mon Nov 10 20:35:24 2003
81.224.233.187

There are several new updates on the Graf & Grislawski site, including photos and a profile on the Main Page, and a full list of the sources used.

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
Update on the Graf & Grislawski site
Sat Nov 22 10:39:35 2003
81.224.233.187

There is a minor update on the Graf & Grislawski site: An Errata to the book.

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave Pawlikowski
Christer! I just finished Graf-Grislawski and...
Thu Jan 1 23:15:29 2004
24.60.122.230

I have a few questions!

First of all, you never explained what was the fate of Josef and Wilhelm Graf. Did they survive the war?

Secondly, I was unaware of Graf's affliction with Parkinsons. You stated that this was a common affliction for high-altitude pilots. I have never heard this before. Wouldn't exposed bomber crewman like waist gunners on a B-17 also suffer from this in high numbers? I'm very curious.

And finally - Congratulations on a fine volume. It was enjoyable from start to finish. You could almost feel the despair of these pilots when they had to take to the skies in 1944 facing overwhelming odds. You really captured what it was like to fly during those times.

I bought the book through Eagle Editions, and bought the Grislawski signed volume. I wish you had signed it, too!

I also bought The Happy Falcon at the same time. I'm in the middle of that right now.

Thanks for taking the time to put your research into book form. It is appreciated!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Re: Christer! I just finished Graf-Grislawski and...
Fri Jan 2 04:48:05 2004
81.225.209.247

Dear Dave, many thanks for your kind words.

Regarding Josef and Wilhelm Graf, they both survived the war. I have some information on them somewhere, but I will have to return on that issue later. I think one of them took over the management of Gasthaus Linde in Engen, but right now I can't remember who it was.

Regarding the causes for Parkinson, I must admit that I am no medical expert (although I used one as a source when I studied Grislawski's wounds on 26 Sept 1944). I only heard from some Luftwaffe veterans that many of those who flew high-altitude missions were afflicted by Parkinsons later.

Thank you for your warming congratulations! If you would have time to write down your impression of the book more in detail, I would be more than glad to place it among other reviews and readers' comments on the Graf & Grislawski website.

"I also bought The Happy Falcon at the same time."

Yes, that's a great book!

All best,

Christer Bergström

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Francisco E.Quiñones
book, Graf-Grislawski
Sat Jan 3 16:48:06 2004
196.28.48.100

going thru it right now just FANTASTIC.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Re: book, Graf-Grislawski
Sat Jan 3 17:27:24 2004
81.225.209.126

Francisco, that makes me so happy! Because it restores Hermann Graf's reputation after so many years!

I'd love to hear your comments more in detail when you've finished reading it.

All best,

Christer Bergström

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/messerschmitt-ace/index.htm

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
Graf's & Grislawski's rudders come together again
Sat Jan 3 00:35:34 2004
81.225.209.126

Dear friends, I can warmly recommend all of you to spend a day or two in the vicinity of Speyer/Germany later this year.

The great news is that Hermann Graf's and Alfred Grislawski's decorated original Bf 109 rudders will come together again after sixty years! They will be put on permanent display together with the original JG 52 Bf 109 G-2, the "Nesthäkchen", plus a copy of the Graf & Grislawski book and photos & misc items at the the Technikmuseum Speyer/Germany!

It's guaranteed - those rudders are the real stuff, no copies!

It will be a true Graf & Grislawski department of that museum!

We owe Traditionsgemeinschaft JG 52 a deep gratitude for this coming true!

See:

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/rudders.htm

Now isn't that good news for the new year!

All best,

Christer Bergström

(For more of this thread on the Graf and Grislawski rudders, the reader is referred to the topic "Luftwaffe museums in Germany - 12" on the "Archives in Germany: General Information" forum.

Regards,
Richard)

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Xtrav
Opinion on Graf - fair or not?
Tue Feb 3 15:55:28 2004
65.34.98.182

While reading the book "Soldat" a German artillery officer's memoir of the war, I was quite surprised to come across the following passage:

"We had a Luftwaffe fighter pilot in the camp, Oberstleutnant Graf, who had shot down almost 400 enemy planes in combat. As one of the most sucessful pilots...he had all the highest decorations for bravery. Yet he could not take the psychological stress of life in the prison camp, and caved in to the Russians. He did everything (they) asked him to do because he was afraid they would never let him go home or would punish him in some other way... A cold and distant man who seemed to look defiant and apologetic at the same time, he was a loner with no close friends. He worked in the kitchen - his reward for cooperating...so he ate better than the rest of us...although food did not seem to be his primary motivation.

He did not behave defensively, and could rationalize his actions if provoked...He could put up a good argument about not feeling loyalty to a country that no longer existed, but when he gave into the Russians he lost all his self-respect and that of his peers too.

I think he would have been better if he had said,

"It is not true. I shot down 300 of your airplanes and fewer than 100 (Allied) planes. I am sorry but I cannot sign this article that says the opposite"

He might have thought they would torture him if he did not cooperate, but all our experience indicated otherwise."


An interesting opinion from one who was there, but is it a fair assesment or not?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Drew 1/72 Dorman
Get the Graf and Grislawski book...
Tue Feb 3 16:29:47 2004
66.189.232.142

from Eagle Editions. Good read, and it sheds some light on Graf's time in captivity and what he went through.

HTH,

-Drew

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
Very fair, as the G/G book shows...
Tue Feb 3 20:29:55 2004
216.99.65.10

...in a very close reading -- it is very carefully and tactfully worded! Soldat's low opinion of Graf was shared by everyone who was in the camp with him. The "quickie" character assessment in the excerpt quoted above rings true. Graf was an uneducated and unsophisticated man who had been spoiled rotten by the German propaganda machine and RM Goering, to the extent that he could name his price when "offered" new postings. (I couldn't believe this until I read the book!) He fully expected either immediate execution or a contination of his privileged treatment in POW camp -- after all, he had the Diamonds! He was "turned" by the Soviets with very little effort. IMHO, there were two principal reasons for a German prisoner to "turn" in captivity: (1) a recognition that he had unwittingly been serving a corrupt, immoral machine, or (2) to get favored treatment. Prior to reading the book, I had been willing to assume the best of Graf, that he became a Soviet mouthpiece for ethical reasons, after he was persuaded that he had been on the wrong side. Instead, it was just to get more food and end his (apparently mild) psychological torture. Graf was a moral weakling, and the snubbing he received once he returned to West Germany was justified. As a further indication of his cluelessness, he was apparently surprised at the treatment he was given by his former comrades -- after all, he had the Diamonds! If he had been a true convert to the Soviet cause, he could have stayed in the east, and probably would have risen far in the East German Air Force, but I don't think this option occurred to him, and I don't think it was addressed in the book (I don't have it here.)

I recommend Christer's book. It's worth careful reading, some of it "between the lines."

Horrido!

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tinku
Graf's friends
Wed Feb 4 20:40:10 2004
80.138.150.148

In the Hartmann Biography by Toliver / Constable, Hartmann and the authors are rather sympathetic to Graf, and state that he was unjustly treated after the war.

Also Bergrstrom's book shows that Graf did have some friends that stuck with him after the war. This speaks much about the loyalty and character of these individuals. It would have been much easier joining in the "kcking" of the fallen man, instead of sticking to the outcast.

In the end Graf is just a tragic figure. If not for his popularity, not many people would have cared. His opportunistic behaviour* was probably very common under those extreme circumstances.

I also prefer reading about the great deeds and examples of moral strength and integrity, and find the men that performed them much more sympathetic. I consider myself to be a very ethical person (don't we all?). However, we can only HOPE that we would have acted "correctly" under those circumstances, but fortunately we will never have to find out.

Tinku


*however all sources I have seen point out that Graf consciously dissobeyed the order of flying back to the Reich and evading capture. He decided not to abandon his men and take the easy way out. That is also a side of Graf...

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
To Don Caldwell (1) - Graf in captivity
Sat Feb 7 23:24:04 2004
81.225.209.126

Don, thanks for recommending my book. However, I must say that during the many years that I "lived" with Graf in my mind - i.e. going through everything I found on Hermann Graf - I got an impression of him that was completely opposite to what you say that you have seen in the book. Moreover, your impression of Graf is the opposite of what those who knew him have told me. And your impression after reading the book is the opposite of what all other readers that have read the book have told me. I guess this again is a case of "we see not what we see, but what we expect to see".

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

As an author of the Graf & Grislawski book, I feel obliged to comment some of your points:

"in a very close reading -- very carefully and tactfully worded"

Well, what I in fact tried to describe "carefully and tactfully" was the harsh and (in my opinion) unjust judgement of Graf by certain other pilots. And "carefully and tactfully" I chose not to go into detail regarding certain other German pilots' cooperation with the Soviets. A close study of Soviet POW interrogation documents shows that there was nothing special with the extent of Graf's brief and shallow cooperation with his captors. According to another Luftwaffe pilot in Soviet captivity, Bodo Helms, 45% of the German officers and 75% of the men joined Nationalkommittee Freies Deutschland (NFKD). (Helms: "Von Anfang an dabei", p. 103.) Graf refused to join the NFKD. Instead he was, very briefly, member of the League of German Officers, which was not as influenced by the Communist Party as the NFKD.

What I discuss - and reveal - in the book is, to the contrary, the "malicious legend" about Graf's "special cooperation" with the Soviets. When I stated - "carefully and tactfully" - in the book that the harsh criticism against Graf is "exaggerated", I could have expressed myself more strongly.

In the book, I explain how the NKVD compromised Graf for the remainder of his life.

All of this is based on the extensive Soviet POW Dossier on Hermann Graf, whereas much of the negative statements about Graf in captivity seems to be based on rumours.

Moreover, it simply is not true that this "low opinion of Graf was shared by everyone who was in the camp with him".

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
To Don Caldwell (2)
Sat Feb 7 23:42:34 2004
81.225.209.126

"Graf was an uneducated and unsophisticated man"

This officer opinion on Graf is nothing special for Graf. The old Prussian officer caste loathed such upstarts as the "Kriegsoffizier" Hermann Graf. You see, Graf wasn't a "real", educated officer; he was a "Kriegsoffizier". Yes, uneducated, like all "Kriegsoffiziere". He received the condescending treatment that the educated officers usually gave the poor "Kriegsoffiziere". In their eyes, all uneducated "Kriegsoffiziere" were uneducated and unsophisticated. In their eyes, Alfred Grislawski was just as uneducated and unsophisticated. What do you personally think?

"who had been spoiled rotten by the German propaganda machine and RM Goering"

Strong words. But unfair. Who wasn't spoiled rotten by the German propaganda nachine? Read the statement by one of the top Luftwaffe aces on page 247 in the Graf & Grislawski book: "We have [all] allowed ourselves to become corrupt through awards and flattering words."

However, Graf seems to have become less "spoiled rotten" than many other highly awarded Luftwaffe aces. He was one of the very few Luftwaffe aces who had the courage to join side with Günther Lützow in the "Kommodore rebellion" against Göring in 1945. Read all about that on pages 246 - 248. A story that is fairly different than the one presented by Steinhoff.

"to the extent that he could name his price when 'offered' new postings."

I find it incredible that anyone can interprete Graf's character like that. Twice he turned down an offer to make an easy escape, and instead stayed with his men and went into captivity together with them: The first time when he refused to obey an order and fly to the West on 8 May 1945(contrary to the behaviour of Hans-Ulrich Rudel - a man who evaded Soviet captivity in this way and thus never was "tested" in the way Graf was). The second time when he turned down an offer to escape from American captivity, and instead chose to march into a very uncertain captivity together with his men. Read all about that in the last chapters in the book.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
To Don Caldwell (3)
Sun Feb 8 00:18:57 2004
81.225.209.126

"He was 'turned' by the Soviets with very little effort."

I think that you, having read the book, understand that we here deal with only the year 1945. (See page 265.) You choose the word "turned". Please tell me if you regard that Erich Hartmann in 1945 acted differently than Graf. Do you find that Erich Hartmann too "was 'turned' by the Soviets with very little effort"?

Personally, I feel that neither Graf, nor Hartmann were "turned" at all. They were subject to several weeks of torture-like treatment at Kirovo Chepetsk, and arrived almost half-dead to the relatively "comfortable" V.I.P. camp at Gryazovets, where - among others - Assi Hahn was interned. There they met "the good cop" instead of "the bad cop" in a classical act of behaviouristic treatment. They got the impression that joining the BDO would save their lives. Do you call that "very little effort"?

"IMHO, there were two principal reasons for a German prisoner to 'turn' in captivity: (1) a recognition that he had unwittingly been serving a corrupt, immoral machine, or (2) to get favored treatment. Prior to reading the book, I had been willing to assume the best of Graf, that he became a Soviet mouthpiece for ethical reasons, after he was persuaded that he had been on the wrong side. Instead, it was just to get more food and end his (apparently mild) psychological torture."

Where on earth did you get that impression? It couldn't be in my book.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
To Don Caldwell (4)
Sun Feb 8 00:06:40 2004
81.225.209.126

"Graf was a moral weakling"

That is strong words. Hermann Graf clandestinely helped Jews to escape persecution in the Third Reich. He helped save the national football team's players from front-line service. On one occasion he refused to give orders to his Geschwader to scramble because he knew that the weather was too bad, even though he knew that he could face a court-martial for that. Graf joined Lützow's "Kommodore rebellion" against Göring - even if it meant that he ran the risk of getting executed. Graf refused to obey the order to fly into safety in the West on 8 May 1945, and instead led his men into American captivity. Graf turned down a later offer to escape, and instead chose to follow his men into Soviet captivity - although he by that time believed that it would cost him his life. And you call him "a moral weakling"!

Don, I think you are terribly wrong here, terribly wrong. After the war, Graf received loads of letters from men who had served under his command during the war and in captivity - men who learned to respect Hermann Graf for his strong moral integrity and personal strength. I know one man who would have been very upset if he would have heard such a statement as yours on Hermann Graf. Unfortunately (for other reasons, of course) he is no longer among us.

No, Don, Hermann Graf was the opposite of what you state. I would be more careful in my judgement of a man than you are. After all, you never met Hermann Graf. Please consider that we are talking of a man who walked on earth not that long ago, a man who deserves to be treated with respect.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ruy Horta
I'll leave the detailed answer to Christer, but...
Sun Feb 8 14:54:00 2004
194.109.243.112

...wouldn't the willing, perhaps even eager, cooperation of Galland and others with the Anglo-Americans, if looked at objectively, have to be judged in similar terms of lacking moral fibre? Wouldn't a step further be to state that only unrepentant characters like Rudel showed real moral fibre by sticking to what they believed in during the Nazi regime?

Or perhaps those pilots who litterally fought to the death in those final months (like Lutzow, who just disappeared, ironic, since he did show much moral fibre opposing Göring).

Isn't the actual case that Graf, and others, are accused of cooperation WITH THE SOVIETS, the latter being the true crime, not the cooperation in general nor the extend of cooperation. Galland and others went much farther, completing whole studies for their (western) captors.

After it was clear that the western allies weren't going to see the Germans as brothers in arms and continue the fight against the Soviets, this cooperation stopped being of a different character than that which was done by those men captured in the east. Galland certainly got a better treatment than some schmuck in Feldgrau (and continued to get so until his death).

Working with communists is the true crime, especially in the cold war era and (perhaps) this is more an issue of contempt for Americans and West Germans (easy continuance of (even pre-)wartime anti-bolsevism) than it is for the majority of modern europeans.

How many American POWs ended up "working with" their North Korean and North Vietnamese captors? Some by means of physical torture, but many by refined psycholocical methods.

This is not an accusation, most of these were men of strong moral fibre and courage and were (still are) beyond reproach.

First we cannot judge if we haven't experienced such hardship ourselves and secondly we hardly know the finer details of what happened (both in real terms and inside of the head of those exposed).

"Graf was a moral weakling, and the snubbing he received once he returned to West Germany was justified."

Indeed an easy accusation made from a safe armchair some sixty years after the fact. But again, the key is "WEST GERMANY".

IMHO these are Cold War sentiments that are in many ways anachronistic and short sighted. It does not belong in modern history. A good case for the need to revise "popular" history.

The main issue is the choice of words, too caustic to be fair, arguably by a long shot.

Ruy Horta

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
I'll leave the detailed answer to Christer, but...
Sun Feb 8 16:27:15 2004
213.25.54.73

>Working with communists is the true crime, especially in the cold war era and (perhaps) this is more an issue of contempt for Americans and West Germans (easy continuance of (even pre-)wartime anti-bolsevism) than it is for the majority of modern europeans.

>IMHO these are Cold War sentiments that are in many ways anachronistic and short sighted. It does not belong in modern history. A good case for the need to revise "popular" history.

Any cooperation with communists should be condemned as it was/is one of the bloodiest regimes on earth. The pinky views of modern Western Europeans can't be considered a moral dogma, rather an effect of years of propaganda and some stupidity.
The other point is that cooperation of German airmen with NS regime was quite easilly forgiven. Many of them turned 'to be real patriots and anti-nazis by heart' post war.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ruy Horta
Communism...
Sun Feb 8 19:09:55 2004
194.109.243.112

Franek, you do not really qualify as an objective character when it comes to these issues. Your hate of communists is only surpassed by your hate of Nazis, although I might start having doubts when I read this lastest post of yours.

Although I was overstressing my case, to make a point, your reaction does proof that cooperation with communists is seen as the real crime here, not the objective issue of cooperation with your captors, nor the form of that cooperation.

In the west this feeling was generated by the cold war, in your case by the Soviet occupation of Poland and the suffering in general by the poles under communism. But COMMUNISM isn't on trial here.

Its clear that, like Toliver and Constable have shown, that the warriors of Nazi Germany found redemption in the cold war as patriots for the free West and many of them continued to see service in the new Bundeswehr. Were these men really "anti-nazi" or had they adjusted to the new regime, which was also vehemently anti-communist?

Franek, let me warn you that I am not a pinko, nor do I like to be tagged in such a manner. Nor am I stupid. I do tend to see the world in more shades than black and white...

To come back to the original debate, the general cooperation of Graf can IMHO not be seen as a sign of moral weakness, certainly not if appraised in an objective manner, not dominated by emotion and especially cold war hate (or anti-communist feelings, regardless if those have some justification).

Ruy Horta

BTW. This should not become an endless debate.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Communism...
Sun Feb 8 20:56:41 2004
213.25.54.73

Ruy

> Franek, you do not really qualify as an objective character when it comes to these issues. Your hate of communists is only surpassed by your hate of Nazis, although I might start having doubts when I read this lastest post of yours.

Well, actually it's a very little difference. One is international socialism, while the other - national one. Both are criminal and both are responsible for millions of deaths.

> Although I was overstressing my case, to make a point, your reaction does proof that cooperation with communists is seen as the real crime here, not the objective issue of cooperation with your captors, nor the form of that cooperation.

Yes indeed. At the time there was enough evidence communists committed crimes against humanity though many didn't want to see obvious. Whatever we may say about the 'Western Allies' they weren't criminal per se.

> In the west this feeling was generated by the cold war, in your case by the Soviet occupation of Poland and the suffering in general by the poles under communism. But COMMUNISM isn't on trial here.

Why do you limit this to Poland only? It's Czechoslovakia, it's Berlin wall, it's Cuban or Viet-Nam refugees, it's Mao's revolution, it's Ethiopia's hunger, it's Gulags. The Western world is not perfect but it's not evil by definition as communism is. Cold war wasn't neccessary to draw that conclusion.

> Its clear that, like Toliver and Constable have shown, that the warriors of Nazi Germany found redemption in the cold war as patriots for the free West and many of them continued to see service in the new Bundeswehr. Were these men really "anti-nazi" or had they adjusted to the new regime, which was also vehemently anti-communist?

Yes indeed and I find such views seriously distorting the reality. This allowed to create a myth of a good warrior in a bad case.

> Franek, let me warn you that I am not a pinko, nor do I like to be tagged in such a manner. Nor am I stupid. I do tend to see the world in more shades than black and white...

I didn't apply the pinkie term to you in particular. However I find comments in kind that life under communistic rules wasn't that bad and had positive sides by the people who never experienced it both stupid and offensive.
Try to tell life in KL wasn't that bad as people there get food, clothes and bed. Certainly mortality was high, however that was the war and nonetheless some survived. Oh, and they had a job there, could learn new trades and languages, this certainly could help them in future life. We shouldn't forget about medical experiments as well, this is still of great help, the results are still of great help for medicians taking care of our own health.
In short would you tell life in NS camp shouldn't be seen in black&white?

> To come back to the original debate, the general cooperation of Graf can IMHO not be seen as a sign of moral weakness, certainly not if appraised in an objective manner, not dominated by emotion and especially cold war hate (or anti-communist feelings, regardless if those have some justification).

Well, at the moment the major question is of there was any co-operation at all. Perhaps he was just only disliked for no particular reason or perhaps the reason was more general. We know that there're people generally disliked and perhaps he was one of them. But I think if we want to discuss Graf's character, we should do a step back into 1942/43 when he was a major propaganda figure, shouldn't we?

> BTW. This should not become an endless debate.

Well, I agree!

Cheers

Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
Hello, Ruy & Christer,...
Mon Feb 9 20:14:55 2004
216.99.65.10

...whom I'm sure will be the only readers of this ancient thread. It is ironic that I could take Christer's data and draw conclusions the opposite of his. I misread his careful wording as an attempt to stay on good terms with his German sources. I can cite a reference from the G/G book for every statement of fact in my letter except the first, that "Soldat's low opinion... was shared by everyone..." That may be excessive -- everyone's opinion was not recorded -- but I can find no documentary evidence to the contrary. Hartmann, who entered captivity with him & knew him better than anyone in the camp, apparently never reconciled with him. I have two questions for Christer that I don't feel are answered satisfactorily in the book. If Graf's behavior in the camps was no worse than anyone else's:

1. Why was the NKVD able to compromise him for the rest of his life? (You can't blackmail an innocent person!)

2. Why was Graf singled out for "special treatment" by his fellow veterans when he returned to the West?

Ruy, I agree with almost everything you say, and normally let questions of "morality" pass, except that in this case I felt that the originator of this thread had a valid question that the Eastern Front experts on this Board were avoiding. After reading the G/G book, I felt justified in anointing myself an "instant expert." My words were strong, in part to "stir up the weeds."

You missed a key sentence in my message: "I had been willing to assume the best of Graf, that he became a Soviet mouthpiece for ethical reasons, after he was persuaded that he had been on the wrong side." He did not become a communist (which IMHO would have been an ethical choice!), and returned to the West as soon as he was given the chance. His "conversion" was therefore not a matter of principle, but only for the purpose of short-term gain. I agree that we cannot fairly judge the resistance of anyone else to physical or psychological torture, but my reading of G/G indicates that Graf was one of the first to "turn", and after no physical torture. Thus my conclusion that he showed "moral weakness". It should have been evident in context that this referred to his behavior as a POW, and not to his wartime performance, which for the most part was exemplary. (I refuse to accept that "saving of the national football team from front-line service" was an example of courage. It was instead a blatant example of Nazi favoritism toward a "national hero", and a disservice to all who served honorably in the Wehrmacht.)

Don Caldwell