Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen - 3

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Kari Lumppio
klumppio@frame.hut.fi
Erla Bf 109 F-4 Trop Stkz blocks - new ones?
Wed May 12, 2004 09:31
130.233.83.21

Salut!

I am supposed to work on something completely different, but this one surfaced almost out of blue.

I have a set of Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen of planes obviously travelling towards JG5 in Northern Finland/Norway. These are taken from Finnish Air Observation logs.

I also have a separate list of known Werke Nummern of JG 5 Bf 109 F-4 Trop (Erla built) planes. From the very same period than the Stkz data above.

There are couple of known F-4 Trop Stkz/WNr blocks which I think are clear cases (?):
CD+LA to CD+LZ (10107-10132)
CI+MA to CI+MZ (10161-10186)

But there also exist matching "visual" patterns for my Stkz/Wnr data. Therefore I would like to ask if someone can deny or confirm (sources?) following Stammkennzeichen block guesses:

VE+TA to VE+TZ (10081-10106) - 3 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
CL+GA to CL+GZ (10135-10160) - 11 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
SB+WA to SB+WZ (10187-10212) - 2 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
NJ+UA to NJ+UZ (10241-10266) - 3 apparent Stkz/WNr matches

I admit three of the blocks are weak cases because of few data points. But what is the probablity that the Stkz/WNr patterns (=place in the Stkz block) match even if there is only two or three points?

There would also be at least two out-of-sequene Stkz if my guess is right: WNr 10133 and 10134. Anything known about these planes?

Waiting eagerly for your responses.

Thanks in advance,
Kari

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
10133 and 10134
Thu May 13, 2004 09:09
83.109.139.71

Hi, Kari!

WNr 10133 is one of ours... lost when Uffz. Wilhelm Kuchlingg (written as in the original Namentliche Verlustemeldung) from 6./JG 5 was reported as MIA on 29.06.1942. He and presumably his Rottenflieger Feldw. Emil Stratmann was last seen as 6. Staffel engaged about 11 Russian fighters near Murmaschi. Kuchlingg's aircraft was at the time coded 'Gelbe 15', while Stratmann was flying 'Gelbe 4', WNr 10180 'CI+MT'. (all according to my notes).

Wnr 10134 was according to my notes lost by 8./JG 53 on 01.06.1942, near El Adem.

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Bf 109F-4 Stammkennzeichen
Sat May 15, 2004 19:10
205.188.116.80

Hallo Kari!

I am sorry to be delayed in responding to you concerning your question of Bf 109F-4 Stammkennzeichen. Very busy here.

Sadly, I have very few SKZ data for the Werknummer ranges you are dealing with. Your question helps me understand why: I have few primary materials from the northern war.

From 12-14 years of study and collection of GAF SKZ, I can say that Messerschmitt Bf 109F blocks can be reconstructed from as few as two SKZ. For example, if you have Q Z + A D = 11 251 and Q Z + A J = 11 257, then all of the numbers betwee 11 251 and 11 257 and all the SKZ between "D" and "J" run sequently. BUT——you CANNOT reliably say what lies after Q Z + A J!!! The next block could begin with "A," or it could be a "partial block" beginning with any letter!!!

The "normal" SKZ block was "A" to "Z" (26 numbers). HOWEVER, it is very common to find "short," "terminated," or partial blocks of less than 26 examples. No matter. Within the blocks, the numbers and letters still run regularly.

Sadly, I do not have the data you have for airplanes traveling in Finland. I cannot, therefore, be sure, but I am pretty sure that Bf 109Fs 10 133 and 10 134 are simply "fillers," or a short block of two. These were often thrown in for security purposes, it seems. I have 10 130 as C D + L X. 10 131 and 10 132 MIGHT then be C D + L Y and C D + L Z. These facts would fit your data.

I hesitate to ask, for I know you have worked hard to obtain the documents, but I wonder if it would be possible to obtain copies of the original documents bearing SKZ? For more than 10 years, I have been working very hard to collect and arrange WNRs. and SKZs and would like very much to fill in the areas represented by "your" Bf 109Fs.

I already have the transit aircraft log book for Malmi, courtesy Carl-F. Guest.

I have no special interest in the northern air war or JG 5 and would use any documents only to improve my SKZ research.

Anyway, I hope that the above comments help you. If I had the data you have, I could give a MUCH better answer!

Very best regards,

James H. Kitchens, III, Ph.D.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe/James
F-4 Skz
Mon May 17, 2004 14:27
62.241.191.61

Rabe/James

The advantage we have in this instance is a list of Skz. and a known list of damage losses.

Knowing what went up through Finland recorded by Skz. and then the W.Nr. recorded in the lost list is a great help.

It seems 95% tie in so it seems to make some well defined blocks.

regards

Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

R. Dergoye
W.Nr. series
Tue Jun 1, 2004 00:14
80.9.2.34

Does anybody know which serial numbers were allocated to Bf 109s (presumably G-6s) with the factory code letters DY+NA to DY+NZ ?

Thanks in advance

R. Dergoye

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jochen Menke
JochenMenkeOF@AOL.com
Bf 109
Tue Jun 1, 2004 12:16
195.93.66.10

Hey

In my list, I have found only the Bf 109 G-6 / DY + NL.
This plane wears the WNr. 410412.

Jochen

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

R. Dergoye
WNr. of DY+N..
Tue Jun 1, 2004 20:13
80.9.11.75

Thanks Jochen.

That would make serial numbers 410401 to 410426 for the factory code letters DY+NA to DY+NZ.

But does anybody know when this series was produced? For instance, do you know to which unit your DY+NL WNr. 410412 was allocated and when it was lost (if it was lost...).

Thanks in advance.

R. Dergoye

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Re: WNr. of DY+N..
Wed Jun 2, 2004 10:07
195.93.74.19

Hey

I have found the WNr together with the SKZ in a loss list from JG 110.
This plane crashed at 17.12.1944 near Stüde, the pilot, Uffz Erich Radke, was killed.

Jochen

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

R. Dergoye
WNr. of DY+N...
Wed Jun 2, 2004 22:11
80.9.3.181

Thanks Jochen. Interesting info.

R. Dergoye

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Larry Hickey
Bf 109 E-1 W.Nr.
Thu Jul 15, 2004 20:17
67.173.250.240

Prien, in his Vol on II/JG 27 (P.5), has a photo of CT+AH taken at the time that II./JG 27 initially equipped with the 109 in early January, 1940. I'm not sure how the Stammkennzeichen codes work, but I suspect that "AM" was manufactured on the line at Fieseler five planes after "AH." If not, someone please tell me how these codes work. Since this "AM" was presumeably delivered shortly after "AH" it is highly likely that the photos on E-Bay were taken sometime in mid-January, 1940, rather than during the Battle of France, as was speculated in an earlier post in this thread. Prien ID's the code CT+AH as coming from the E-1 W.Nr. block of 6151 to 6177, manufactured by Fieseler-Werke. Someone may be able to tell from this exactly what the W.Nr. of CT+AM was.

Larry Hickey

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jaap Woortman
Stkz versus W.Nr.
Thu Jul 15, 2004 20:51
212.142.15.103

The block goes from 6151 TO 6177. In my opinion this means that 6177 is not included. If Bf 109E1 CT+AA has had W.Nr.6151 then CT+AZ has had W.Nr.6176. This means that CT+AM must have had W.Nr.6163.

Jaap

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Bf 109E-1 C T + A M Redux
Thu Jul 15, 2004 21:36
132.60.240.80

Thank you, Jaap, for contributing on the SKZ-Werknummer arrangement. You are entirely correct about the correlation between codes and Werknummern, at least for those machines manufacturered after about November 1939.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mark Sheppard
Bf109 E GD+GL
Wed Aug 4, 2004 22:12
195.92.168.164

Hi all

In Ed's current listing for ebay there is a Bf 109 E with the Stkz of GD+GL.

Can any help confirm GD+GL is from the group 0809 - 0877 E-3's built by Erla?

regards

MS

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

steve sheridan
Bf 109E GD+GL
Thu Aug 5, 2004 21:46
80.41.67.103

Hiya Mark,
I have seen your other message regarding the possible identity of this a/c. I have had a scan through my stkz lists, but unfortunately i dont have any GD+** coded Emils whatsoever.
Like yourself, i have the Erla batch of Bf109E-3's W.nr's
0809-0877, listed, but i haven't come across any stkz for this batch as of yet, i would be very grateful if you could possibly send me a scan of the a/c you mention, this being GD+ D? I would really like to see this, if you could.

If you could help in any way, or if you have any further info of stkz from this batch above, id be very grateful.

rgs,
Steve.