AFHRA & NARA Luftgaukommandos reports

[Richard T Eger]

These are German reports on downed Allied aircraft and airmen. The U.S. holdings are primarily for U.S. airmen, but there may be some records of UK aircraft and airmen, too. Only the NARA has the original German language documents. Both the AFHRA and the NARA have the English language translations appended to the appropriate MACR's. I am told that the English translations do not do the original German language documents justice.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock high!:

Martin Crawford
KU Documents
Tue Apr 30 12:52:29 2002
205.56.210.34

Is there a source for KU documents?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
KU Documents
Tue Apr 30 14:24:05 2002
198.26.132.99

KU files are held by the National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, Maryland, in RG 242, Captured German Documents. This large series has not been microfilmed, and it will be necessary to make a site visit in order to see the material.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Vasco
KU?
Tue Apr 30 18:54:27 2002
195.92.168.172

For the uninitiated like myself, what is/are 'KU'?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Zdiarsky
KU / KE
Mon May 6 14:54:30 2002
193.84.38.112

Hi John and others,
as I noted on a German telegram (also a part of original
KU report) while my visit of the N.A. in USA, there was
a roster of some airplanes shot down on a time period over
any area. There were noted reports KU XXXX and J XXXX
(where XXXX isd particular number) (sure, this is for US
bombers and J for fighters), but there were also mentioned
KE XXXX reports. They were all for RAF bombers (so fo night
accidents - on this example). SO I believe, the KU may mean
anything as "Kriegsxxx USA" and the KE may mean "Kriegsxxxx
Englander", or so.

On another documents - roster of losses of German fighters
I noted th "QU XXXX". May this mean anything similar as is
the KU report for "enemy" planes?
DO anyone know how may be reachable these "QU Reports" - if
exist...

Have great day, Jan
( www.museum119.cz (http://www.museum119.cz) )

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 30 May 2002).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
KU Documents and Crashed Allied Aircraft
Wed May 1 02:45:33 2002
152.163.197.179

Hello John!

As World War II ended, the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps (Graves Registration) conducted a massive continent-wide operation to locate and recover the remains of American servicemen who had gone missing in Europe. This operation is largely forgotten today. As part of it, all available German documents related to U.S. POWs and/or crashed U.S. aircraft were collected and most, if not all, retyped and translated into English. The majority of these documents seem to come from the Luftgaue that were responsible for reporting downed Allied aircraft, collecting the crews, identifying remains, and so forth. I am not quite certain (and it really doesn't matter functionally) whether the Germans applied the designation "KU," or whether it was done later by the Americans. I am pretty sure that the KU is actually of German origin. Larry de Zeng knows, and he may speak up here about this.

At any rate, bottom line is that German documents related to Allied aircrew POWs that fell into American hands are designated "KU documents." The KUs mostly relate to bomber aircrew case files. There are also identical type case documents designated "J," and these mostly relate to fighter air crew losses. The "KU" and the "J" are prefixes to three or four digit case files, for example, KU 274 or J 2613. I believe, though Larry de Z. may correct me, that "KU" stands for Kampf[or Kampfflieger] Unterlagen" and presumably the "J" for Jagdflieger or some such. Practically speaking, I can see no difference between the KU and J series.

Usually, a KU file contains a one-page form filled out by the Luftwaffe authorities (aircrew names; time; place; cause of loss; aircraft markings and s/ns, if any) plus various lists of personal effects and notes on the disposition of dead or surviving aircrew.

In 1945-1946 as the U.S. Army Graves Registration (Quartermaster) teams did their work, the USAAF Missing Air Crew Reports (MACRs) were sorted and "married" to whatever German documents could be found for each missing crew or missing airman. Today, when an individual obtains a MACR, it includes all the KU and J documents that could be found and linked to the original MACR per se. Not all MACRs, of course, include KU or J documents.

The KU and J original paper documents may be found today in our Nat'l Archives and Records Administration, Record Group 242, Captured German Documents, at College Park, Maryland.

There is a very very useful chronological list of Allied aircraft crashes included in Record Group 92, Missing Air Crew Reports. This list is reproduced on 17 microfiche and can be purchased from the NARA. There must be around 5000 Allied aircraft recorded, and while incomplete and frustrating, the list does usually give the KU or J reference number that applied to each individual crash. The RG 92 list of crashed aircraft can be a very valuable reference for locating where a particular U.S. or RAF aircraft fell, its serial number, and so forth.

Thoroughly confused, John?!

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
KU, ME, J, AV and Related Reports
Wed May 1 16:29:50 2002
152.163.197.212

Actually, I was in the process of posting a lengthy reply on this yesterday when AOL disconnected me (as usual) and I lost the entire thing halfway through. Now, thanks to RA, there's no need to retype everything today, as his posting pretty well says it all. The only thing I might add is that this subject is covered over on Richard Eger's website, www.lwag.org (http://www.lwag.org). When you go there, click on records in U.S. archives, then, when this comes up, click on Search and enter KU or ME. The links will appear and provide you with some additional information.

The important thing is, as RA stated, these records are only available at NARA in WashDC. You have to go there in person since it was never microfilmed. The entire 600-linear foot collection is in RG 242, Entries 1011 through 1039. These are German originals, as RA stated, with some English translations. However, the translations are so poor that I would advise researchers to stick with the German originals.

HTH, (Larry)

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 30 May 2002).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
MACR's
Fri May 3 04:24:12 2002
162.33.235.121

Dear Rabe and Larry,

I was under the impression that, in addition to the NARA having a set of the MACR's, the AFHRA does, too. Is this correct? Assuming the answer is in the affirmative, does the AFHRA also have the Luftgaukommandos reports, or are these only at the NARA in College Park, MD?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
NARA vs AFHRA
Fri May 3 13:10:20 2002
205.188.199.164

Richard -

The MACRs are available at both, while the Luftgaukdo. Berichten are only available at NARA.
HTH, (L)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T Eger
MACR's
Fri May 3 13:33:27 2002
162.33.235.114

Dear Larry,

Thanks for confirming what I thought was the case.

Regards,
Richard

(In email communication today with Claudio Michael Becker in Germany, Claudio confirms that the English language translations of the Luftgaukommandos reports are appended to the appropriate MACR's at the AFHRA, as they are at the NARA. However, the German language hard copy originals are only at the NARA II.

Regards,
Richard)

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Annette Tison
Personal Items Taken From Captured/Dead US Airmen
Fri Oct 4 14:39:31 2002
152.163.189.170

I have examined many KU reports in the US Archives. Some include an inventory listing personal items (such as letters or photographs) that were taken from the crew by the Germans after they crashed. Yet the only items I've seen included in the KU files are of a military nature--dog tags, shot records, gunnery certifications, etc. What happened to the photos and letters?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Personal Effects
Sat Oct 5 14:09:45 2002
64.12.96.139

Annette -

To the best of my knowledge, personal items such as wallets, family photos, personal letters, etc., were first sent to Dulag Luft at Oberursel near Frankfurt to be examined by the Luftwaffe's intelligence people, and then handed over to the International Red Cross for forwarding to U.S. authorities through Red Cross channels. Fifteen years ago I spent a few days going through a large number of those same files and did find several family photos and personal letters, but no wallets.

Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Hans
personal effects
Sun Oct 6 01:08:34 2002
152.163.189.234

Annette

During a bombardment on Berlin in summer '43, we were stopped from goin out and were put im a commando to help cleaning and rescue people which homes and shelters had been hit by bombs.
A Halifax bomber had been hit and some of the crew had gotten out. I and some other members of our group were send out to get one of the crew mmembers. The civilian population was ready to kill anyone since a maternety ward of a hosptal had been hit and the bodies of woman and babies were still laying around.
The young crew member was scared to death. I offered him one of my cigarettes and moved him to a waiting truck. He was taken over by some guaeds and brought to a POW camp.

We did not tough him or took anything away from him since he was unarmed.

When I was taken POW by the British, my very first present from a sergeant was a kick im my kidneys,aco,pamied by the words" Get up you f.... heiny" Then I was ask were my kameraden were. I did not know it and answered such and a fluiently German speaking British officer hauled out and his fist hit me on the left side of my face.
A repeat of this question gave the same results.
We had to wait and some more of our group, which by the way was a group of just from the hospital released ex patients.

We had to run past a line of parked tanks and the crews of these punished us with fists, rifle buts and even bajonets. I still have the scars.
When we got to the first collecting station, we had to strip. The first thing that went, was my Luftwaffen watch and a golden filler pen.
All my personal effects were thrown on the ground and the only thing they sepperatet were our Soldbuecher I picked up a picture of my dad and got for that a cick in my rear. I kept a hold on the picture and made it clear that this was a picture of my dad who had died during a bombardment.
ewkuctant the guard let me keep it and I still have it.
The rest of my personal belongings I never saw back

Only my Soldbuch turned up after the war and is now somewhere in a Archive. No red cross and no family notification. That was out treatment from the allied side.

Regards
Hans

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ged
Treatment during the war
Tue Oct 8 08:29:43 2002
203.27.69.93

Hans,
It's sad to hear of your bad experiences in the hands of the allies.
I can also understand the resentment to the captured allied airman, during the raid that killed the women and children. My mother went into Dresden two days after the allied bombing in February 1945. What she saw was just too horrific to repeat.

As we all say, war (any war) is hell, but we do need to hear both sides (like yours) to get a balanced picture.

Ged

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Hans
treatment
Tue Oct 8 17:56:31 2002
205.188.209.80

Ged

I was in Aue in the Ertzgebirge in a hospital and we saw there the bombardment of Dresden happenning.
Today the allies are still lying about the casualties that this has caused.
At the time it was said to be over 200 000 because of the "Treck" The influx of the people escaping the russians from the east. And there could have been as many as a half million in the general area.
But at that time it was OK to kill woman en children an masse. Now the Brittish have lowered the casualty count to 3500.
In the Brittish POW camps there was starvation. Our daily solid food intake was a half a slice of the Brittish millitairy bread, of which on loaf had to be devidet under 12 prisoners.
I was reduced to 98 pounds within just a few weeks and after the Germans had surrendered, the treatment became even worse. Every morning when we woke up, we walked outside and anything green sprouting up, was consumed right away before anyone els would find it. Grass taste pretty good. I contractet scurvy and almost died before I was taken to a hospital.
My stepdad who was an invalide of WW 1, but was still taken to play soldier, was captured by the Frence troops and imprisoned in a camp, ruled by Senegallese troops. Their food was what ever insects could be cought. He was just 82 pounds whenn released. (With active cholera)

The only German POWs who were treatet right were the ones who were lucky enough to be transportet to the US.

Our families did not get notification of our where abouts and our belongings were dividet between the guards after they hed sortet out what was still usable. Any personal jewelry dissapeared within minutes after us being stripped.
None of us ever saw enything back. Even wedding rings were taken.
I have to quitt. Even now, 57 years later, I ask who were the war criminals? In our system the loser is always the warcriminal.

F/R
Hans

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

frederik
Tony Woods' listing - 17/9/44
Sat Jul 5 09:15:33 2003
195.240.205.177

Tony Woods'(great!) luftwaffe claim lists not only cover luftwaffe claims, but in some cases (in particular for September 1944), also known crash sites ("bruchunterlagen"). These entries list time, location, planquadrat, type and "cause of destruction" ("art der vernichtung"). In some cases this is given through a description ( e.g., "aufschlagbrand"), but in other cases given via a (unique?) code, e.g., J-2253. I am thinking that this unique code may refer to a particular record describing the crash site, if so, how can I get more details on that? I am in particular interested in the records for 17 september 1944. Is there anybody that has copies of these records and is willing to share or trade for "other" info?

thanks in advance!

Frederik

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Horst Weber
ho.weber@t-online.de
bruchunterlagen
Sun Jul 6 01:46:02 2003
217.230.65.81

Frederik !

These are the German Luftgaukommando files of "allied air crashes", compiled day by day in U.S. National Archives. A catalogue of those is available in the NARA RG 92 microfiches 5970 - 5985. When oyu found your case of interest, you can order paper copies of the file. Since these files were shipped for evaluation purposes to The U.S. postwar, they are not available in a German archive.

Best wishes

Horst Weber

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Luc Vervoort
17/09/1944
Sun Jul 6 08:30:56 2003
62.235.234.243

B17 MAASTRICHT
B24 NESBEYEN NORWAY
B17 ….591 KREFELD
P51 NW F SZEKESFE BUDAPEST
P47 RR STATION AMERSFOORT GRID HL 6,1
P47 13KM SE OF MERSFOORT INTO YSELSEA
C47 ….004 STERKRADE
P47 20KM N OF AMERSFOORT GRID GL 9/1
P47 NW OF KATWIJK
P51 HOXFELD W OF BORKEN
P51 VARDIGHOLD NR BORKEN

Hi Frederik and Horst,
This are the planes mentioned on the microfiches for that day - compared with other dates - not many ..
Best regards

Luc

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

frederik
thanks, Horst and Luc ....
Sun Jul 6 19:24:41 2003
195.241.184.247

....but will the records have more information than just the time and location as given by Luc? Would they include , for instance, witness- or Flak claim reports?

[Richard T Eger]

For a quite helpful discussion including reference to KU reports, the reader is referred to the topic "AFHRA & NARA Missing Air Crew Reports - 6" on the "Archives in the USA" forum.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

For an interesting discussion of MACR's and Luftgaukommandos reports at NARA II, the reader is referred to the topic "Luftgaukommandos reports, including Tagesmeldungen/Abschussmeldungen & KTB's" on the "Document Types" forum.

Regards,
Richard