AFHRA & NARA Missing Air Crew Reports - 4

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

CJE
T9+HK
Sat Apr 6 18:32:33 2002
212.27.35.139

According to Lerche, this P-51B landed at Cambrai-Süd on June 6, 1944 and was immediatly taken in charge by Rechlin, where it was given the Wk.Nr. 0825 and the code T9+HK.
Does anyone know which USAAF unit it belonged to?
Thanks in advance.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Luc Vervoort
6/6/1944 Cambrai
Sat Apr 6 20:25:57 2002
212.233.1.20

Hi !

43-24825 4 FG 334 FS QP-G went missing on 6/6/1944.
The pilot 2Lt.Thomas E.Fraser became a pow.
The plane was called ' Jerry ' ...
(macr 5608)
Best regards

Luc

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

CJE
Thanks... (n/t)
Sun Apr 7 04:41:46 2002
212.27.35.155

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

George Hopp
15th AF attack of 2 July 1944
Mon Apr 8 17:27:12 2002
134.117.137.77

Does anyone have details of the numbers of aircraft, and units (if possible) involved on both sides of this mission. I am also seeking numbers of losses on both sides, with details. Again if possible.

So far, I have not been able to find any book or other reference on 15th AF missions to compare to the ones on the 8th AF.

Thanks,
George

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Laurent
15th Air Force
Mon Apr 8 20:22:13 2002
213.44.13.89

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/Jul.44.html
gives you the target and a general view

Amongst the losses were the following B-17s :
Brod raid
42-5946 of 416 BS / 99 BG, MACR 6617
42-30056 of 342 BS / 97 BG, 3 KIA, 7 POW, MACR 6338
Vinkovci raid
42-31998 of 347 BS / 97 BG, mech fault, MACR 6444
42-32041 of 348 BS / 99 BG, flak & ea, MACR 6518
Szolnok raid
42-32103 of 419 BS/ 301 BG, ditched, 1 KIA, 8 RTD

Source the B-17 Story, by Roger A. Freeman, listing all B-17S with fate by aircraft number, I am currently (and slowly) listing them by date, roughly at 50% of the list now, so certainly more B-17 were lost this day.

Also the book (like all) is not 100% trustable.

Nothing in the book 'Air war over Italy 44-45' so no activity here against 15th AF.

4th FG from 8th Air Force was in Italy after a Shuttle (GB to Russia to Italy) and lose an ace, Ralph Hofer, during this raid.

A site here :
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/
with the following page descibing the battle (and showing that MTO was not a sideshow)
http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrlove/1000_destroyed/chptr18.html

Most info on the German-Hungarian side (claims and losses) on this pages:

http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/books/932/2jl44.htm

More on German claims on this page:

http://www.ww2.dk/misc/claims3.doc

There is also a book on Hungarian fighters, in France the title is 'Les Pumas rouges' (Red Pumas, nickname of the unit of the writer).

Good luck for your search.

I don't think you can find a book on the 15th as you have several on the 8th, but units history exist for most FG and BG of the 15th AF.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Thanks, Laurent
Tue Apr 9 00:07:23 2002
134.117.137.47

Thank you for your details on the raids of 2nd July. I had a few very general comments on the raids from "Air War Europa" by Eric Hammel, but after a couple of sentences on the bomber attacks he spends a full column on the fighter actions.

Noting that JG 302 was involved in defending against this attack on Budapest, etc., I checked Willi Reschke's book on "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 'Wilde Sau'" and he mentioned an attack of 541 bombers against Budapest and a further 62 against targets on the Hungarian-Yugoslav border, with 270 P-38 and P-51 escorts. He then described shooting down 2 B-24s, force landing his 109, and getting beat up by the locals.

Thanks again for your info, Laurent.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Peter Kassak
July 2, 1944
Tue Apr 9 12:45:16 2002
158.195.16.233

HI George.

I am sending you the complete list of US losses.
I have a friend, who is interested in this battle, because his uncle I think, was killed in this battle. he knows a lot...
contact me off line...

Peter http://www.lwag.org/ubb/smile.gif

[date, serial, plane, MACR number, AF, Group, Squadron, pilot, crashplace...]

2-7-44 44-13418 P51D 6336 15 325
2-7-44 44-13463 P51D 6337 15 325
2-7-44 42-106857 P51B-15-NA 8528 15 352
2-7-44 42-51151 B24H 6859 15 376
2-7-44 42-73140 B24J 6436 15 376
2-7-44 42-52295 B24H 6438 15 456 744 2Lt Huls Gyúró, Kuldói kerekdomb-“Hot & Bothered”
2-7-44 42-51077 B24H 6439 15 456 744 1Lt Jones Pusztaszabolcs, Gyula-akol puszta
2-7-44 42-99799 B24J 6440 15 456 744 2Lt Whittaker Kápolnásnyék
2-7-44 42-64487 B24H 6441 15 456 744 2Lt Hutchins Kajászó É 2 km
2-7-44 41-28947 B24H-20-DT 6442 15 456 744 2Lt Powell Budapest D
2-7-44 42-78072 B24G 6445 15 456 744 2Lt Hendrickson Bp és Székesfehérvár között
2-7-44 42-78388 B24G 6341 15 459
2-7-44 42-52342 B24H 6412 15 459
2-7-44 41-29438 B24H-15-CF 6331 15 459
2-7-44 42-5946 B17F-35-VE 6617 15 97
2-7-44 42-30056 B17F-85-BO 6338 15 97
2-7-44 42-31998 B17G-35-BO 6444 15 99
2-7-44 42-32041 B17G-35-BO 6518 15 99

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Thanks, Peter n/t
Tue Apr 9 21:05:21 2002
134.117.137.63

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Jan Bobek
Hartmann´s P-51 victories and sources
Mon Apr 8 17:37:39 2002
213.246.78.70

Concerning Hartmann´s P-51 victories, I would like to summarize three sources:

1) Obermaier says that Hartmann had 4 Mustang victories (If I remember well)

2) Hartmann (but more likely Toliver and Constable) in his book says that based on his correspondence his P-51 victories were achieved on May 21 and June 1, 1944. I am not sure but if I remember well, there were no Allied raids on the above days over Rumania ...

3) Bernd Barbas is listing 6 kills:
262. - 263. - 2 Mustangs on June 23, 1944
264. - 266. - 3 Mustangs on June 24, 1944
346. - Mustang in March 1945

On May 21 Hartmann shot down two Airacobras (224. - 225.) and On June 1 he shot down 4 Jaks-9 and 2 Airacobras (232. - 237.) with JG 52 completely busy with air support to operation "Sonja" and being rejected from operations against US AF.

Earlier in this forum I submitted longer posting including Hartmann coments related to his June 24 combat (see also Prien JG 77 for reference). I somebody has my message saved (C. Herrera?) it would be nice to post it here.

Hope that my posting brought some light in to this repeated topic. I personally rely to Barbas data.

Hals und Beinbruch

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Peter Kassak
some addings....
Tue Apr 9 12:42:00 2002
158.195.16.233

Hi HOnzo and others.

I checked those two dates:
On May 21 and June 1, 1944 there were no losses for 15.AF nor Mustangs.
On June 23,1944 were lost these Mustangs:
43-24863 P51B MACR6074 15 52
43-24847 P51B MACR6072 15 52
42-103554 P51C-5-NT MACR6733 15 325
42-103590 P51C-5-NT MACR6075 15 52

On June 24, 1944 were loste these Mustangs:
42-103552 P51C-5-NT 6178 15 325
42-103599 P51C-5-NT 6077 15 325
So here it seems to be clear, that both were victims of Hartmans guns. But I know nothing about the Flak beying in that area...
For this day it was written:
335 bombers attack targets in
Rumania; B-17s attack the railroad bridge at Piatra; B-24s bomb the railroad
repair depot at Craiova and oil refinery at Ploesti; 33 P-51s sweep the
Ploesti-Bucharest area while other P-51s, P-38s, and P-47s fly 220+ sorties
in support of the bombers; the bombers and fighters claim 20+ aircraft shot
down; 10 US aircraft are downed and several others are missing.
But no other fighter plane than those two Mustangs was lost...

And for the March claim there is data about these Mustangs beying shot down.(Can someone write some of them off?)
date, serial, plane, MACR, AF, FG, FS.
13-3-45 43-6700 P51B 13002 15 31
16-3-45 43-17102 ? P51B 13058 15 31
16-3-45 43-24820 P51B 13060 15 332
20-3-45 43-7068 P51B 13126 15 332
24-3-45 43-24864 P51B 13267 15 332
26-3-45 43-24809 P51B 13483 15 325
24-3-45 42-106622 P51B-10-NA 13269 15 332
14-3-45 43-25070 P51C 12996 15 332
18-3-45 43-25120 P51C 13123 15 325
24-3-45 44-10955 P51C 13270 15 332
24-3-45 42-103905 P51C-10-NT 13266 15 332
23-3-45 42-103565 P51C-5-NT 13256 15 332
24-3-45 42-103611 P51C-5-NT 13268 15 332
1-3-45 44-15480 P51D 12517 15 325
3-3-45 44-11221 P51D 12828 15 332
3-3-45 44-15121 P51D 12827 15 332
12-3-45 44-13429 P51D 13006 15 31
13-3-45 44-15378 P51D 13003 15 325
14-3-45 44-63360 P51D 12994 15 325
14-3-45 44-13430 P51D 12993 15 325
16-3-45 44-15667 P51D 13056 15 31
16-3-45 44-14213 P51D 13057 15 31
18-3-45 44-63500 P51D 13125 15 325
18-3-45 44-15454 P51D 13124 15 325
19-3-45 44-15649 P51D 13065 15 52
19-3-45 44-14474 P51D 13066 15 52
26-3-45 44-63484 P51D 13213 15 32?
26-3-45 44-15679 P51D 13215 15 325
26-3-45 44-15449 P51D 13214 15 325
31-3-45 44-15441 P51D 13216 15 323
31-3-45 44-11231 P51D 13212 15 332
31-3-45 44-15690 P51D 13211 15 352

This is true, if Hartman joined plane from 15.AF. Else it is more complicated...
I hope these lists will help you to solve this "mystery" of Hartmanns Mustang claims.

Have a nice days and fly as high as possible... http://www.lwag.org/ubb/smile.gif

Peter

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jan Bobek
nice info Peter! Thanks! (n/t)
Tue Apr 9 15:37:05 2002
213.246.78.70

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

C. Herrera
Maj. Baer's P-51 victory -August 7,1944
Wed Apr 10 04:55:08 2002
63.255.54.77

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to see if anyone could identify Maj. Baer's 201th (202nd?)victory-a P-51 claimed SE of Chartres at 1440 hrs on August 7,1944? Signs point to the 354th FG which had an engagement "over Mayenne" claiming 5-0-2 for a loss of two. There are four MACRs for the 354th FG on this date.Any thoughts?

Carlos

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
GAF Aerial Victory Claim - 07.08.44
Wed Apr 10 22:34:45 2002
198.26.132.99

Carl, you have referenced four MACRs related to 354th FG.
Do you actually possess these MACRs, or are you working from other sources implying 354th FG?

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

C. herrera
P-51 Loss-August 7,1944
Thu Apr 11 01:49:32 2002
63.255.30.47

Rabe,
Nupe, I have a MACR listing I obtained from someone (can't think of his name now)over the Web and this list has four MACRs for this date:
8/7/44 42-106716 P51B-10-NA 8225 9 354
8/7/44 43-7030 P51B 6223 9 354
8/7/44 44-13544 P51D 8226 9 354
8/7/44 44-13348 P51D 8224 9 354

Also in "The 9th AF" by Rust, it mentions two P-51s being lost in a battle with the LW on this date. The victory list (Frappe-LW in France)for this time period indicates that only one P-51 was claimed by the LW ,Maj Baer's at 1440 hrs.
Therefore,it seems very possible that Heinz Baer's victory was over a 354th FG P-51.

Any thoughts?

Carlos

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave Clark
P-51s lost 7 August 1944
Thu Apr 11 02:29:46 2002
154.20.88.228

You may be right, but I'm not at all sure. For instance, in addition to the 9th AF losses that you quote, the following P-51s were lost

Eighth AF 334th FS 4th FG a P-51 at Pont de Pany (wherever that is!)2Lt Malmstein EVD
Eighth AF 335th FS 4th FG same place, Lt Wadsworth POW -- now these two are reputed to be the result of flak, but there is often a very fine line between this and the real cause of a victory.
Eighth AF 63rd FS 56th FG over Marlers -- FO Magel fate unknown, again attributed to flak

19 Squadron 122 Wing -- P-51 loss over the Seine in the afternoon -- F/O Hart KIA, again attributed to flak.

Now consider the four lost by 354th FG (we're not even sure what FS) There are two groups, MACR 6223 which may have been lost in one mission, and then 8224, 8225, 8226 in another. Stab./JG 3 only claimed one there at Chartres at 1440 hours. If we go to 354th FG claims they made 7 claims at Domfront at 1520 hours. We know they were there at that time, but why do we believe they were at Chartres at 1440?

You may be absolutely right, but I think the evidence is thin.

For my part I think that Major Bar made a clam at 1440, and it may have been a legitimate claim (although many were not!), but I don't think I have enough information to tell who it was.

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Frank Olynyk
354th FG Losses, Aug 7, 1944
Thu Apr 11 07:59:38 2002
162.40.43.133

The 354th FG flew six missions on Aug 7.
#367 T/O 1145, land 1405, patrol the American assault area (Vire, Argentan, Rennes, Lacarville area). 12 P-51s, 356th FS, no claims, no losses.

#368 T/O 1333, land 1613, patrol the American assault area (Laval, Alencon, Mayenne area). 12 P-51s, 356th FS, claims 5/0/2, 2 losses. MACR 8225: 42-106716, 1stLt Edward Henry Pinkerton, MIA (I do not have a note on cause). No MACR: serial unknown to me (anyone have it?), 2ndLt Loyd James Overfield, returned Aug 12, cause unknown to me.

#369 T/O 1523, land 1810, patrol the American assault area (St Malo, Rennes, Ammiens, Laval area). 12 P-51s, 355th FS, no claims, no losses.

#370 T/O 1615, land 1820, Scramble - Fighter sweep (Chartres area). 12 P-51s, 356th FS, claims: 13/0 ground, 3 losses. MACR 8225: 42-106716, 1stLt Thomas Frederick Miller, POW, cause: engine trouble (=lead poisoning?). MACR 8224, 44-13348, 1stLt Charles Howard Simonson, WIA, flak. MACR 8223, 43-7030, 1stLt James Donald Harbers, KIA, own flak.

#371 T/O 1734, land 1944, Patrol - American assault area (Alencon, Argentan, Laval, Mayenne area). 12 P-51s, 353rd FS, no claims, no losses.

#372, T/O 1925, land 2202, Patrol - American assault area (St Bruuc, Nantes, Le Noyes, Caen area). 12 P-51s, 355th FS, no claims, no losses.

Frank.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
P-51 victory
Fri Apr 12 03:51:44 2002
63.255.40.224

Thanks Frank!

At least the time is right for the engagement (T/O 1333-land 1613). In my mind, it's a strong posibility. All other Mustang losses appear to be due to flak.

Thanks to all for your contributions!

Carlos

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Martin Crawford
Dachsberg
Sat Apr 20 15:16:53 2002
193.188.97.151

Is there a place that would list the part of the fighter grid map that would show Dachsberg? I am looking for a reference to a crash site of a 452 BG, B-17 loss on 12 May 1944.

Thanks
Martin Crawford

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Claudio
German Fighter Grid Data
Tue Apr 23 20:17:56 2002
145.253.2.234

I think you are looking for the B17 Serial 42-37974, MACR 4816, of 452nd BG.
Beliving into the KU documents, the aircraft crashed at DAXBERG, 7 1/2 miles SE of Aschaffenburg.
German Grid Data : QT7
2 POW´s
If you need more, just contact me.

Claudio

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andy WILSON
LW v 96BG 12th MAY '44
Sat May 18 21:16:22 2002
213.36.76.83

Trying to find out any information on the air action against the 96th BG when, specifically, B17G 42-107189, flown by Lt R SIMONS, was shot down NW of Frankfurt. Probably shot down by aircraft from either JG3 or JG27
Relative of Robert SIMONS is researching the circumstances of his loss.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

George Hopp
12 May 44 raid
Sun May 19 02:44:05 2002
134.117.137.89

Werner Girbig in his book "... mit kurs auf leuna" devotes pages 13 through 32 on the raids of this date.

Since about half the B-17s claimed on that date were claimed in the general area of Frankfurt, I doubt that you have much chance of finding the victor.

A small extract from the book above: "Between about 1215 and 1300 the leading elements of the 4th Combat Wing underwent continuous attacks by German fighters. The attacking forces consisted of the entire JG3, I/II JG 11, I/II/III JG 27, as well as II/JG 53. All together, the 4th Combat Wing underwent 4 massive fighter attacks, during which 11 B-17s went destroyed."

All the best,
George

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joss
M.A.C.R. 4854
Sun May 19 12:08:13 2002
195.93.33.157

The Missing Air Crew Report for this crew bears the reference number 4854, and may be purchased from the National Archives at College Park, Maryland.
From Andrews & Adams, the B-17 was 42-107189, from 96th B.G., 339th B.S., individual letter M, nickname "7th son".
Failed to return, German Fighters, crashed Dauborn, Germany.
9 KIAs, 1 PoW.
If I had had it, I'd have posted details from it !

Joss

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joerg Dietsche
B-17, 12th May 1944 Dauborn
Wed May 22 19:16:10 2002
217.2.108.96

Gentlemen,
that is the whole story and the units involved

Datum 12.05.1944 Absturzort Dauborn bei Camberg Ziel: Brux
MACR-Nr 4864

Flugzeug Typ B-17G-BO AF-Serial No. 42-107189
Kennung „7th SON“
Einheit 8th AAF 96 th BG 339th BS AAF Station Horham
Besatzung Name Serial-No.Position Status
1st Lt Simons, Robert O- Pilot KIA
1st Lt Duncan, Horace O- Co-pilot KIA
2nd Lt Nelson, Garrett O- Navigator KIA
1st Lt Russell, Jack Bombardier KIA
T/Sgt Paul, Harland Eng/TTG KIA
T/Sgt Keshal, Walter Radio Op KIA
S/Sgt Petrosky, Joseph Ball Turret KIA
S/Sgt Russo, Anthony LWaist Gun KIA
S/Sgt Good, Ralph Rwaist Gun KIA
S/Sgt Wethor, John Tail Gun POW

FRIDAY, 12 MAY 1944
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):
Mission 353: 886 bombers and 735 fighters are dispatched to hit oil production facilities in Germany and Czechoslovakia; there is strong Luftwaffe fighter reaction and 46 bombers and 7 fighters are lost:
1. 326 B-17s are dispatched to Mersenburg (224 bomb) and Lutzkendorf (87 bomb); 1 hits Hedrongen and 1 bombs Bullstadt; 2 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 189 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 6 WIA and 20 MIA.
2. 295 B-17s are dispatched to Brux, Czechoslovakia (140 bomb) and Zwickau (74 bomb); 11 hit Chemnitz, 14 hit Gera marshalling yard, 15 hit Hof and 4 hit targets of opportunity; 41 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 162 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA and 377 MIA.
3. 265 B-24s are dispatched to Zeitz (116 bomb) and Bohlen (99 bomb); 14 hit Mersenburg, 1 hits Ostend Airfield, Belgium and 12 hit targets of opportunity; 3 B-24s are lost, 5 damaged beyond repair and 61 damaged; 7 airmen are WIA and 33 MIA.
Escort is provided by 153 P-38s, 201 P-47s and 381 P-51s; P-38s claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, P-47s claim 26-0-8 and P-51s claim 33-0-3 in the air and 5-0-2 on the ground; 4 P-47s and 3 P-51s are lost and 4 P-47s and 9 P-51s are damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
Mission 354: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 1.74 million leaflets on Denmark; 1 aircraft is damaged; 2 airmen are KIA and 3 WIA.
Description to the list below
Date – Lw Pilot/unit – Target a/c-position altitude-time-confirmed/not confirmed
Tiefflug – low level
HSS-shot out of formation

Day Phase 12th May 1944

12.05.44 Oblt. Bucholz 6./JG 1 P-47 PO-PN Eifel area, tiefflug 300 m. 12.10 4 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Milde 5./JG 1 B-24 PO-PN Eifel area, 6.500 m. 12.18 1 - yes
12.05.44 Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder II./JG 1 B-24 PO-PN Eifel area, 6.500 m. 12.18 44 - yes
12.05.44 Fw. Bindseil 6./JG 1 B-24 hss PO-OO Eifel area, 6.500 m. 12.18 1 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Weber 5./JG 1 B-24 hss PO-PN Eifel area, 6.500 m. 12.18 3 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Stuckenbrock II./JG 1 B-24 hss PO-PN Eifel area, 6.500 m. 12.18 1 - yes
12.05.44 Ofhr. Köhne 3./JG 1 B-24 QS-PS Wetzlar area, 6.500 m. 15.00 29 - yes
12.05.44 Lt. Anton Piffer 1./JG 1 B-24 QS-PS Wetzlar area, 6.000 m. 15.02 28 - yes
12.05.44 Lt. Dieter Zink Stab/JG 3 B-17 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.32 9 - yes
12.05.44 Maj. Friedrich-Karl Müller Stab/JG 3 B-17 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.32 139 - yes
12.05.44 Maj. Friedrich-Karl Müller Stab/JG 3 B-17 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.37 140 - yes
12.05.44 Fw. Otto Büssow 2./JG 3 B-17 HSS Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.25 2 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Horst Petzschler 2./JG 3 B-17 HSS Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.28 4 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Horst Petzschler 2./JG 3 P-51 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.35 5 - yes
12.05.44 Fw. Otto Büssow 2./JG 3 P-51 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.40 2 - yes
12.05.44 Fw. Franz Busch 5./JG 3 B-17 HSS Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.35 2 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Theo Burchardt 4./JG 3 B-17 HSS Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.40 3 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Ülrich Gehrke 4./JG 3 B-17 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.40 2 - yes
12.05.44 Uffz. Theo Burchardt 4./JG 3 B-17 Gießen-Frankfurt area 12.40 2 - yes
12.05.44 Lt. Franz Ruhl 4./JG 3