NARA captured German records

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christian Möller
Captured German Documents at National Archives, USA
Tue Sep 4 11:25:45 2001


Dear friends,

I´m looking for microfilm rolls containing special captured German documents for my book project on the German Stoerkampf- and Nachtschlachtgruppen (Luftwaffe).

I´ve already discussed this problem with some members of TOCH, but we didn´t come to a solution. So, I tried to ask National Archives at College Park, Maryland/USA, but they cannot help neither, as they are not staffed to undertake the research necessary to match microfilm rolls to original paper records (which are held at BA-MA, Germany). However, the microfilm collection is described in over 100 volumes of finding aids (the "Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria/VA."?).

I asked the following:

"I´m looking for microfilm rolls containing the following captured German documents, which are now at the BA-MA, Germany:

1.) The documents entitled "Einsatzbereitschaft der Fliegenden Verbaende" which were originated by sections of the 6. Abteilung of the Luftwaffe General quartiermeister's Staff. The originals were held in the ADI(K) Document Section in the late 1940s.
These originals were later copied to microfilm in the USA, returned to Germany and can be found at the Bundesarchiv-Militaerarchiv under RL 2 III/700-734, entitled "Uebersicht ueber Soll, Istbestand, Einsatzbereitschaft, Verluste und Reserven der fliegenden Verbaende", compiled in several large books.
Summaries of the documents can also be found at the Public Record Office in the UK, as AIR40/1207 "The German Air Force: first line strength at three monthly intervals during the European War 1939-1945", but again only on A4 paper.

2.) Additionally, I´m looking for microfilm rolls containing the "Aufmarschkarten der Luftwaffe", special maps showing the GAF units´ dispersion in Russia and Europe during WW2.
These files are held at BA-MA Germany under "BA-MA KART 40" (series of maps), but only on paper.

3.) Finally, I´m looking for microfilm-rolls containing the "Kriegsstaerkenachweise" (K.St.N.), the individual unit´s strength on personnel and material. These files are held at Freiburg/Germany under "BA-MA RLD-11…".
However, the following numbers are missing:
K.St.N.: 1167 L, 1168 L, 1169 L, 1170 L (for the various Stoerkampfgruppen), 1211 L and 1212 L (Nachtschlachtgruppen), 1256 n L, 1257 n L and 1258 n L (Nachtschlachtgruppen)."


Now I hope some other member(s) of TOCH may help in this matter?
Maybe someone knows the signature of these documents at National Archive (microfilm rolls)?

Looking very forward to your suggestions and many thanks in advance.

Greetings,

Christian Möller
(Germany)


P.S.: Making xerox-copies of the German documents (paper) would be far too expensive (BA-MA RL 2 III-700pp even cannot be copied, as the pages are DIN A3+. They told me they can make photos, but you may imagine how much I shall afford for this procedure, simply not payable!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA
Tue Sep 4 13:29:58 2001


Dear Christian,

Probably one of the most knowledgeable fellows regarding the NARA holdings that frequents this board is Larry deZeng.

I have been slowly reading the book "Captured German and Related Records, A National Archives Conference (Nov. 12-13, 1968), edited by Robert Wolfe, Ohio University Press, Athens, Ohio, c. 1974, ISBN 8214-0172-6. This gives the history of the handling of these records in the U.S., including the microfilming project at the old Torpedo Factory building in Alexandria. I visited there in the mid-60's when this activity was just winding up. The building is now a very famous center for artists.

I assume from what you are saying, that you want the appropriate microfilm reels from over here, as the BA-MA hard copy records would be too daunting to copy.

As I read the book, I did become aware that the guide volumes, by themselves, would be too voluminous to try to find anything. I can't quote just where in the book I read it, but I think the intention was to create a guide to the guides. If actually done, that certainly would be one place to start.

I think that they were also creating a card index. Of course, that requires someone to put eyeballs to the cards to actually make use of them and, as you indicate, the NARA staff is probably spread too thin to do so for you. I'm wondering if the NARA can supply a list of researchers for hire?

I assume that you've been to the NARA site, looked at the holdings of RG 242, and not found the detail that you need.

Frankly, I haven't been to the NARA since 1977, and I've never been to the NARA II. Larry has said I've just got to go. I've been hitting the archives at NASM Garber, which, interestingly, have a group of microfilms identified as ADI(K). I need to do further investigation on these. I am planning, if all goes well, to do a one day reconnoiter of the NARA II in a couple of weeks, purely to get a lay of the land. My fear is that the holdings are so vast that it will be like getting sucked down into a black hole.

There may be easy ways to get at what you want but, never having been there, I simply have no idea whatsoever.

Sorry if I haven't been helpful, but thought I would share the above with you.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim Steuard
NARA records (long)
Tue Sep 4 21:40:05 2001


To add a few comments to Richard's reply. Years ago I spoke several times (and in length) with Dr. Wolfe while I was doing research at NARA. To put aside a myth about funds, NARA had little or no funds to microfilm any of the captured german records; as Richard recounts these were stored in the old Torpoedo factory in Alexandria, VA (and were being slowly consumed by mice when I visited there). These records were eventually filmed using grant monies obtained from the AHA, and arranged through the University of Kansas (as I remember); and as Richard indicates, the records were filmed very selectively (less than 20%according to Dr. Wolfe, who sorted and arranged the files for filming) and then were filmed heavily in support of those persons researching the Nüremburg war crime testimonies.

Also, the NARA records contain only materials that were captured by the US and/or British armies (mainly the former) and there is not much material on the Russian campaign(s) or the Ostfront in the archives (unless found in unit diaries or records that were captured in the west).

I hope this helps to explain the NARA records.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
NARA German records
Tue Sep 4 22:22:24 2001


Dear Jim and Christian,

Jim is correct in that this was a sort of hand to mouth operation. Initially, IIRC, it was actually funded by foundations and the Army. The Army supplied manpower and, even when they pulled out, they did so in a progressive manner, as they recognized the value of the program. Then the AHA joined in. Then it became an NARA responsibility. The Korean war created a resurgence of interest in the records, which helped continue the efforts. IIRC, the last microfilming was completed in 1966.

Initially, the Army wanted to be very selective in what was microfilmed. The archivists, though, were opposed to such selectivity and, in the end, I believe they won the day, with 50-60% of all records getting microfilmed, not 20%. Whether the specific records you want are there, Christian, I can't say.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Schultz
headache
Tue Sep 4 18:57:18 2001


This is just an observation from my research,but isn't NARA a headache lol.
I've been searching info on Venlo and Langendiebach airfields for quit some time with little succes,but i must keep looking.

Good Luck Gentlemen


Schultz

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
records
Wed Sep 5 16:47:36 2001


Dear Mr.Schultz

If you have a specific question about Venlo, I am perhaps be able to help you further.

Best wishes, Marcel Hogenhuis
Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
US NAtional Archives
Wed Sep 5 17:10:33 2001


Actually I have found dealing with the US National Archives to be a pretty reasonable experience. The personnel were helpful over the phone and most of them good to deal with in person. The facilities ar College Park are accessible and pretty easy to use. The main downside is that so much material is there that one can get lost. There is also some overhead in getting set up to call for documents. A one day visit is probably of little value. As you get use to the system and set up for document calls, the efficiency goes up. Microfilm material is reallly easy to use and they had a lot more readers than on previous visits and I had no problem getting to a reader printer whenever I needed. Copying machines usually have lines and write your name on your copying card as someone took mine with about $20 still on it. If you know what you are looking for, a call ahead can confirm if it is there and if you make an appointment, I have found the archivists to be very helpful, saving me a lot of wasted time searching some of the material that does not have good finding aids. What problems have you had?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christian Möller
Thanks a lot, Gentlemen...
Tue Sep 4 20:51:33 2001


...your detailed information makes me sleep much better now!

Well, so I will have to go to Freiburg again and write off what I wanted (regarding RL 700pp).
According strength lists and maps it´s indeed very unlikely that British or Amercian Archives should have microfilmed them, unless they had enough time and money to do so.

Again, thank you very much.

Many greetings,

Christian

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
NARA RG 242 Microfilms
Tue Sep 4 18:52:19 2001


Christian -

Sadly, I must be the bearer of bad tidings. For better or worse, I am one of the very few Luftwaffe researchers who has examined each and every roll of National Archives microfilm that has anything even remotely to do with the Luftwaffe. This includes every roll of T-321 (OKL), T-971 (the so-called von Rohden Collection) and T-405 (Luftgäue und Flak). There was also some leakage in T-77 (OKW) and I looked at all of these, too. Further, I have all of the published and microfiche NARA Finding Aid Guides to RG 242 and I've read each and every one of them several times over the past 24 years. The items that you have described under 1., 2. and 3. above were never microfilmed by our National Archives.

Problems of this sort keep coming up on this Board, Christian, because the archivists and clerical staff at BA-MA Freiburg keep telling everyone that the Americans filmed everything, or are hiding this or that, or have lost or destroyed documents, etc., etc. It was never the intention of the U.S. National Archives to microfilm everything. The filming process was very selective and many items were ignored and returned to the BRD unfilmed.

But in the case of the documents you have listed, it is very, very unlikely that they ever left England and even came to the United States because they fall into a category of documents (historical and administrative) that, by agreement, remained in British custody after they were taken from Germany to England in 1945 and early 1946. Unlike the U.S. National Archives, the British Air Ministry's Air Historical Branch had neither the funds nor the motivation to do much microfilming. A lot of material in British custody was subsequently filmed by or for the Imperial War Museum in London, but I have seen a list of all this material, too. Again, your items are not to be found.
Regards,
(Larry)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
ADI(K) document filming
Tue Sep 4 21:55:20 2001


There was a similar thread, a few days ago and apparently most ignored what I said then. My point was documents collected by ADI(K) , at least some of them, were microfilmed, not at the "Torpedo factory" in the USA, but at the document collection center in Paris in 1945 by US intelligence. These are not part of RG242 and probably are not at NA. I have seen some of the reels and they are very specific as to the date organization and location of the filming.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
ADI(K) microfilms
Tue Sep 4 22:38:52 2001


Dear Artie Bob,

Would you mind telling us just where you saw these microfilms? Could the set at the NASM Garber archives be the same?

The one I looked at, ADI(K) 153, contained a number of items, one of which was item 1305, cataloged as a report on the Me 262 nightfighters, with photos. It actually turned out to be initially as claimed, but also included a bunch of non-related material, all of which was of a technical nature. The Mil designated microfilms, as I mentioned the other day, did contain operational material. I'll try to get a better understanding of the microfilm holdings at Garber when I go back within the next 2 months.

Going back to the ADI(K) microfilms at Garber, it was Larry Wilson, a Garber archivist, who zeroed in on this document. In his searching, he deduced that the item numbers ran consecutively from reel to reel. Thus, he was able to quickly locate the reel that item 1305 was on. A stamp on the first page of this document says:

U. S. NAVY - USSTAF

Microfilm No. 1305

153

Larry believes that the ADI(K) group in London created these microfilms in liaison with or at the behest of the US Navy, as a Navy officer resided where the microfilming was being done.

Hindering locating information on these reels is a lack of frame numbers.

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 10 October 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
Additional comment
Tue Sep 4 22:41:59 2001


I forgot to mention that the cataloger of the item 1305 document appeared to not be aware that it was composed of a number of documents and that the photos appeared in the non-nightfighter related documents.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andy Mitchell
Kommandos Laupheim, Liedke and Nebel
Sun Oct 21 11:36:11 2001


Can anyone help me with any information about the above three units.

The only detail that I have is derived from Barry Rosch (Luftwaffe Codes etc) and I do not believe that these units are listed at all by Michael Holm.

Any clues or additional details would be much appreciated.

Many thanks

Andy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry (deZeng)
Laupheim, Liedke and Nebel
Sun Oct 21 14:41:39 2001


Andy -

Erprobungskommando Laupheim was established in November 1943 at Laupheim by the Kriegsmarine to supervise and manage the development of helicopters/autogiros for the German Navy. It filed a strength return on 12 February 1944 reporting a total of 3 officers, 2 enlisted and 87 civilian employees. The E-Kdo. was reassigned to the Luftwaffe on 1 December 1944 and was still in existence at Laupheim in April 1945.
Kommando Liedke, I believe, was the name applied for a very short period (a month or two) to a detachment from either an Ergänzungsverband or Schuleinheit that was rushed to reinforce the central sector of the Eastern Front about fall 1943. I have information on it, but I can't seem to locate it in my records.
Sonderkommando Nebel (a.k.a. E-Kdo. Nebel) was formed 26 July 1944 at Offingen near Ulm for the testing of the Me 264A, the ultra long-range reconnaissance aircraft sometimes referred to as the "Amerika-Bomber" that was to be used over the Atlantic in conjunction with U-boat operations. The V-1 prototype of this plane was destroyed during an Allied air raid in September 1944, so the E-Kdo. didn't have much to do. In January 1945 it's mission was still stated as being connected with the support of the Kriegsmarine, specifically the development of aircraft to work with the new Type XXI U-boats. On 12 February 1945 it had a planned (paper) strength of 14 officers and 330 men, but how many of these were actually present is unknown. It was still at Offingen in April 1945.
HTH
(Larry)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andy Mitchell
Laupheim, Liedke and Nebel
Sun Oct 21 20:44:43 2001


Larry,


Many thanks for the information.
Hope that I can return the favour in the future.

Andy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

tomcat (Bernd Müller)
erprobungskommando
Wed Oct 24 21:00:25 2001


hello,

just was at ww2.dk, air units, miscellaneos units. there is a lot of those erprobungskommandos or versuchskommandos listed and described.

unfortunately you need the number of the the kommando - or must look for them all.

do you perhaps know, which number kommando nebel had ?

regards, tomcat

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
Re: erprobungskommando
Thu Oct 25 15:17:54 2001


None of the three listed was assigned a number. They were "name only" units.
- Larry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Warren Bell
E-Kdo Nebel
Wed Oct 24 15:12:28 2001


Larry.

I found your information about E-Kdo Nebel especially interesting as I have been working on a writing project concerning the Me 264. According to Ebert, Kaiser, and Peters' Messerschmitt book in the History of German Aviation series, the incomplete V-2 and V-3 prototypes were moved to "Metellbau Offingen" when their production space at Augsburg was required for the Me 262 program. Do you have any information about the capacity of the Offingen facility, i.e. could the V-2 and V-3 have been assembled there? And if so, was there an airfield nearby from which they could have been flown to a test facility?

Thanks in advance for your help.

(Warren)

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 21 November 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry
Re: E-Kdo Nebel
Wed Oct 24 17:04:35 2001


Hi Warren -

All of my information comes from unpublished and published German language sources as follows:
NARA WashDC: RG 242/T-321 roll 114/frame 241;
NARA WashDC: RG 242/T-79 roll 14;
BA-MA Freiburg: Signatur RL 4 II/32;
BA-MA Freiburg: 2.Abteilung/OKL conference minutes for 11 and 12 February 1945;
Neitzel, Sönke, "Der Einsatz der deutschen Luftwaffe über dem Atlantik und der Nordsee 1939-1940", (Bonn, 1995); [Atlantik]; s.228-30.
The Neitzel book may have answers to some of your questions, but I can't say with certainty. I'm an organization, units and operations man, so as a matter of course I usually pass by the material concerning aircraft.
HTH,
(Larry)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Warren Bell
E-Kdo-Nebel
Thu Oct 25 00:08:03 2001


Thanks, Larry. I appreciate the information.

Warren

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

LwFlieger
KG 1
Sat Jun 15 05:53:10 2002
205.188.198.189

No, there is no history of KG 1 PUBLISHED. The Knight's Cross Holders of KG 1 book recently published is not a unit history (but it does give a thumbnail account). Its about any RK holders who had any association with KG 1 and its predecessors. It also lists all the Kommodores going back to 1933 (!) but nothing for Kommandeure. It was somewhat dissappointing but at the same time it had much useful data on commanders. It was obviously written from data supplied from veterans BUT unfortunately it is also apparent that the author does not have sufficient familiarity with the subject. I found that the book made contradictory statements and was also in conflict with reliable sources. A history of KG 1 was written by a staff officer in KG 1 in 1944 when the unit was being dissolved but has never been published:

Spohr (Hptm.) – “Kriegschronik des Kampgeschwader 1 ‘Hindenburg’”, a 78 page manuscript c. late 1944/early 1945. Hptm. Spohr was a member of the Stab/KG 1 with access to all KTBs and Anlagen. From microfilms from: BA-MA Freiburg RL 10/529; NARA WashDC T-971 roll 50/f. 965-1056; AFHRA Maxwell AFB Karlsruhe Collection K113.408-3

All this stems out of a joint project between Larry deZeng and myself, where we are writing histories of all bomber units (for the first volume). Our KG 1 history takes up 6 and half pages of 9 point double column text. Eventually we hope to publish this. All the drafts are done but we are awaiting on a number of important references to be published.

The above is just for your information.