KU and J Documents

[Andrew Arthy]

Hello,

Does anyone know if the KU and J Reports exist for USAAF aircraft crashed or shot down in Tunisia?

Also, is there a list available of independent researchers for NARA or the USAFHRA?

Cheers,
Andrew A.

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Andrew,

While I can't speak specifically for Tunisia, I believe that the files you are interested in are at the NARA II in College Park, Maryland. I had pursued this subject with the archivists there during visits last fall. These would be part of the Luftgaukommandos reports in the possession of the NARA.

I have also discussed the subject of contract research. My understanding is that contract researchers are available, but do recognize that you are dealing with a series of records that may or may not fall within the typical contract researcher's ability to ferret out the information. The records are in German. Translations of these, which I understand hardly do justice to the original German, are appended to the appropriate MACR's, also at the NARA.

All this comes second hand, I must admit, as I have not personally seen these documents.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

For further discussion, the reader is referred to the "Archives in the USA" forum, "AFHRA & NARA Luftgaukommandos reports" topic.

Regards,
Richard

[bfblake]

I can't speak for anyone else, however, I recently received a reply from NARA regarding a request for a KU report on a downed B-24H near Bernburg on 11 April 1944 (Serial Number 42-7522).

The archivist informed me that their [NARA] KU records were fragmentary and no such KU report for this particular aircraft could be found.

While I haven't located a KU report, I have received documentary evidence of a 11 April 1944 shoot down from a German sourced flak related document. The details closely match details in a the MACR report.

[Richard T Eger]

For a quite helpful discussion including reference to KU reports, the reader is referred to the topic "AFHRA & NARA Missing Air Crew Reports - 6" on the "Archives in the USA" forum.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Francis Marshall
Luftgaukommando Documents
Sat Jun 5, 2004 18:29
80.128.30.150

Hi Theo,
actually there are some records you might find of interest but they are in Washington DC.
I discovered them after going through a number of US MACRs, many of which have interesting snippets of obviously German origin reports.
So after the war the Americans spent some effort tracing missing and killed airmen including interviewing ex PoWs. This is all recorded in the MACRs.
So the famous "KU" reports, which have been discussed here before, are derived from Luftgaukommando documents.
You will find these under RG242 in the National Archives (US).
There is also an index to them in RG92 available on 17 Microfiche. I have these but have loaned them to a friend.
If you go through these you will find reference to further documents, also available, but only as paper copies.
Maybe you should contact me off Board for further details.

Francis

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

KEITH KUTTESCH
KDKUTT@AOL.COM
B-17F #42-30203 388THB/G 560THB/S
Wed Jul 7, 2004 14:53
64.12.117.11

ON 6TH SEPT 1943 21 B-17F'S LEFT KNETTISHALL,ENGLAND FOR A MISSION TO STUTTGART. THE MISSION WAS DOOMED TO FAIL FROM THE BEGINING. WHEN THEY GOT TO THE TARGET SITE THE BOMBERSTREAM BROKE OFF INTO GROUPS. CLOUD COVER AND SMOKE FROM THE SMOKE POTS AROUND STUTTGART MADE IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO LOCATE AND BOMB THE VKF BALLBEARING PLANT. THE 388TH STAYED WITH THE 96TH AND BOMBED ON THE 96TH LEAD OVER STRAUSBORG. ON THE WAY BACK TO ENGLAND WHILE OVER FRANCE, THE GROUP IS HIT HARD BY FLACK AND GERMAN FIGHTERS. B-17F # 42-30203 WAS HIT HARD. THIS AIRCRAFT ALREADY HAD 1 ENGINE OUT, AND ON FIRE DUE TO A FLAK HIT. THE ENGINED WAS SHUT DOWN, THE FIRE HAD BEEN PUT OUT, BUT IT WAS STILL SMOKEING. THEY WERE ABLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE FORMATION BUT EVENTUALLY HAD TO FALL BEHIND. GERMAN ME 109'S AND FW 190'S WERE HITTING THIS GROUP HARD. SOME ACCOUNTS SAID THAT THERE WERE ABOUT 50 GERMAN FIGHTERS FIREING ON THEM. #42-30203 WAS HIT HARD BY THE FIGHTERS. THIS B-17F HAD THE SQUARE "H" ON IT'S TAIL WITH THE CALL LETTER "G". #42-30203 WAS GETTING HIT FROM ALL DIRECTIONS, 2 MORE ENGINES WERE SHOT OUT, THE OXYGEN SYSTEM ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE AIRCRAFT HAD FAILED, THE PLEXIGLASS BOMBERS WINDOW HAD BEEN BLOWN OFF. THE PILOT 1ST. LT. ROY H. MOHR GAVE THE BAIL OUT ORDER. ALL CREWMEMBERS CHECKED IN WITH A ROGER AND BAILED OUT. 8 PARACHUTES WERE DESCENDING OVER THE SOUTH REGION OF SEINE-ET-MARNE, FOLLOWING THE ESSONNES VALLEY, SITUATED BETWEEN MALESHERBES AND PUISEAUS, FRANCE. APPROX 40 MILES SOUTH OF FRANCE. THE PILOT AND COPILOT BELIEVED TO HAVE BAILED OUT SOME DISTANCE FURTHER WEST. THE B-17 HAD BEEN HIT HARD, BUT WAS STILL FLYING.
3 MEN FELL IN COUDRAY, 2 MEN WERER PICKED UP AROUND VERRINES AND 1 CREWMEMBER LANDED IN BOULANCOURT.
WHAT I AM ASKING FOR IS WHO WAS THE GERMAN PILOT THAT TOOK CREDIT FOR THIS KILL, AND WHERE DID THE B-17F CRASH?
THANKS, KEITH.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Loss of Boeing B-17 s/n 42-30203
Wed Jul 7, 2004 16:35
132.60.240.80

Keith,

With all good wishes and intent, I must mention a couple of things concerning your posting.

First, you've put up several such notices before. Repetition is sometimes a workable tactic on discussion sites such as these, but I feel that you've pretty much exhausted whatever you're gonna get about the loss of Lt Mohr's airplane. It's not that you're unwelcome here, for you are always welcome to bring up new and interesting Luftwaffe problems or expand old ones. It's rather that your questions are difficult in the extreme and that several respondents, myself included, have tried to help you to the maximum already. I can understand your frustration, but repetitive pleas here or anywhere else probably are not going to fill in the missing pieces. I recommend some different tactics.

Identifying victors and claimants in the strategic air war over northwestern Europe is usually a chancy business which depends on hard work and luck as much as anything else. How many B-17s went down on this day? How many were claimed by fighters? What type of fighters? How many were claimed in the general area in question? And, what kind of evidence do you really expect? Luftwaffe fighter pilots did not take up a Bic and paper and carefully note the location, coloration, and individual markings of their intended or eventual victims. How could they? In the maelstrom of air combat, they were doing pretty well to survive and remember the approximate geographic location, type of enemy, and time of day of any encounters. . . .

Point is, with some aggressive research, you can accomplish most or all of what readers of this board can do for you, to wit, refer to the magisterial unit histories of Jochen Prien (JG 1 and 11), Eric Mombeek (JG 1), Don Caldwell (JG 26) and others. Very little evidence in the area of claims and losses has escaped the attention of these men, and by thoroughly, tenaciously, and carefully examining the available literature you will learn about as much as anyone can tell you. Regrettably, there is as yet no satisfactory history of JG 2, and this Jagdgeschwader may well have been a player in the loss of s/n 42-30203.

Once again, the only recourse that you have concerning the crash site is through the Individual Deceased Personnel File (IDPF, or "293 file") for members of the aircrew who did not survive. Were not only eight men seen to bale out of ten aboard? If any of them went down with the ship, they were almost certainly buried at or very near the crash site, and this is probably indicated in one or more IDPFs.
If no aircrew went down with the ship, you're going to have a very tough time indeed locating the crash site. Very possibly only French police reports or the "KU" series of German documents in NARA, RG 242, will offer any documentation on this point——period! This, I believe, has been pointed out before. What has not perhaps been sufficiently emphasized is that you MUST put yourself in the 1943 setting and ask yourself, how might the crash of an Allied airplane be recorded, who might do it, and where might that documentation be available today? Also, you must remember that only about three percent of Luftwaffe records survived the war. Many readers of this site are extremely well informed, but none of them have crystal balls that will overcome grave documentary lacunae from the war era.

Additionally, let me recommend that you write your notices in conventional fashion using upper and lower case letters.
All upper case usage is considered the equivalent of shouting on the Twelve O'Clock High! site. It is also counterproductive since it's harder to read than conventional usage, and most readers have a negative reaction to it, which means they aren't going to even think about answering you.

And finally, best of luck to you.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lynn
Interesting info, Rabe...
Thu Jul 8, 2004 22:29
216.49.69.242

do you suspect there might be anything besides a few photographic records of the crashed Allied aircraft cycled through Nanterre and other reclamation facilities? That's probably a long shot, but perhaps worth investigating...

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Zerlegungsbetreib Records
Fri Jul 9, 2004 22:48
152.163.252.194

Lynn,

The only Zerlegungsbetreib records that I've ever seen or heard of consisted of one monthly report from the Zerlegungsbetreib Utrecht. Interesting, but no cigar for the Boeing B-17 in question.

RA

(Altavista translates "Zerlegungsbetreib" into "dismantling-operate" or, more likely, as Lynn points out, it means "reclamation facilty".

Regards,
Richard)