Luftwaffe Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss lists at the BA/MA - 3

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Boris Súdny
Bf 109G-6 W.Nr.163547
Sun Oct 12 21:06:33 2003
213.81.196.64

Hi all!
I am looking for a specific information about the fate of a Bf 109G-6 W.Nr.163547, which belonged propably to I./JG 302 in summer 1944.
Was this plane shot down, destroyed by any enemy activity or so?
Thanks in forward...
Boris Súdny.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Bf 109G-6 W.Nr.163547
Sun Oct 12 21:29:10 2003
64.136.26.232

Bf 109G-6 163547 Kleine, Fhr. Kurt Eins.St. EJG 1 + 5 22-Jan-45 MIA, cause unknown. RLV Ost (Lfl. 6) BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/766, p.20 (Welun area) 100% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Boris Súdny
Thanks for infos, Jim! n/m (nm)
Thu Oct 16 21:34:45 2003
213.81.196.17

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Zamax
KTB, RL and BAMA Freiburg?
Fri Nov 14 13:35:56 2003
212.210.71.3

Perhaps I'm too stupid to understand myself, but someone can explain me what KTB, RL (for ex RL 2 III / 184) and BAMA Freiburg exactly stand for?
I suppose tha KTB are something like war diaries, RL are microfiches and BAMA Freiburg is a site the place of the Bundesarchive.
I'm partially right?

Another question:
In the stormbird.com site (wonderful) is transcript the files RLM 2 III/1170 through 1172, but what means all the abbreviations used in this example?

Gen.Qu.6.Abt.Nr.880/45 g.Kdos(V) v. 24.1.45 lfd.Nr.13


TIA
Zamax

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Abbreviations
Fri Nov 14 17:42:50 2003
152.163.252.131

KTB = Kriegstagebuch (war diary or war journal).
RL = Reich, Luftwaffe (refers to a Signatur (record group) at BA-MA containing Luftwaffe documents from the period of the Third Reich).
BA-MA = Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv (National Archive - Military Archive) at Freiburg im Breisgau in southwest Germany.
RLM 2 III/1170-72 = Reich - Luftfahrtministerium, Signatur 2 (Generalstab der Luftwaffe) III (Generalquartiermeister)/folders 1170-72 (Personalverluste, Materialverluste; Jagd-, Nachtjagdverbände, 12.44 - 01.45).
Gen.Qu.6.Abt.Nr.880/45 g.Kdos.(V) v. 24.1.45 lfd.Nr.13 = Generalquartiermeister (6th Branch), No. 880/45, Top Secret, dated 24 January 1945, copy No. 13.

If you are going to work with this material, I would strongly suggest you learn some German.

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Zamax
Thank you very much (nt) (nm)
Mon Nov 17 13:04:20 2003
212.210.71.3

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
FW 190G-3, WNr 16007?
Wed Jul 21, 2004 14:38
83.109.184.139

Hi.

In my list I have a missing last digit for this WNr.

The aircraft was damaged 35% in a low level attack at Fl.Pl.Redlin on 22.02.1945 while with JGr. 10.

Has anyone got other data on the full WNr?

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Andreas are you sure....
Wed Jul 21, 2004 14:56
24.163.23.156

...about the number? there is
Fw190G-3 160007 III. SKG 10 DN+FG 9-9-1943 0:00:00 Destroyed by own troops. WNr. reported as 007. Italy Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22 Eboli 100% F

Then there is the only G-3 on 22-Feb-45

Fw190G-3 160074 NJGr. 10 CL+WX 22-Feb-45 Tiefangriff. Nachtjagd Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12) Fl.Pl. Redlin 35% F

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Are You sure about the unit?
Wed Jul 21, 2004 15:16
83.109.184.139

is the full entry:

Genst.Gen.Qu.6. Abt. lfd.Nr. 280/45 dated 15.03.1945

lfd.Nr. 19
22.2.1945
J.Gr.10
F
Fl.Pl.Redlin
Tiefangriff
FW 190G-3 WNr 16007? (probably 4 then)
35%

This is my transcript, and I will check the original microfiche, but it is listed between two F-8's from the same unit, while the N.J.Gr.10 entries start a bit further down the page. N.J.Gr.10 was also at Redlin, in fact they lost a Ju 88G-1, WNr 714254 in the same attack.

I thought the FW 190G-3 was a ground attack aircraft and not a nightfighter, and haven't doubted this entry with regards to unit until now, but from recollection I seem to remember that 1.Staffel N.J.Gr.10 was using Bf 109 and FW 190.

We need to get this right!!!

Kindest regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
The Fw 190G-3...
Wed Jul 21, 2004 15:51
24.163.23.156

...was the A-6 modified for long range missions. It was originally for long-range attack, however, with its "wet" wing system and the ability to carry drop tanks it was used by night-fighter units and was sometimes equipped with radar.

IIRC, NJr 10 was the equivalent of an "operational testing" unit and used a number of G-3s fitted with radar. There are several photos of these a/c.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

David Pausey
Who attacked Redlin on 22.2.1945 ?? (nm)
Wed Jul 21, 2004 16:38
195.92.67.71

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
mfm-12 - what document
Wed Jul 21, 2004 15:19
83.109.184.139

Hi, John.

I use the microfiche for research of the Gen.Qu.6.Abt losses, and thus use the original document name as a reference (as You can see from my other entry)

Could You pls check the name of the docuemnt You have used?

It is the listing with the standing format, right?

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

G.R.Morrison
The source was Gen.Qu.6.Abt.
Wed Jul 21, 2004 16:29
4.233.149.154

When Jim P & I typed the db, we used 'mfm' to abbreviate 'microfilm'; in this case roll #12. We have other 'oddball' abbreviations for other sources that we used, too. Sorry if it was a source of confusion!

Hope this clarifies, GRM

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Hi, G.R., not confused, only
Wed Jul 21, 2004 20:51
129.240.240.46

wanted to know if You had taken the info from the exact same source I had.

Th microfilm rolls contain filmed original documents, and they have their own document number, usually in the form xxx/45 for the ones issued in 45.

In addition, every entry has a lfd.Nr., so that the officials could reference it later.

Thus for example if a correction was sent in from a unit, there would be a correction added to a later document stating that for entry 46 in the report of 2.3.45 the pilot was found drowned in the sea (or something similar).

I was just asking to see if the document that was included on microfilm roll #12 was the same one that I have read from on my microfiche, especially since John Beaman have stated that Your entry was N.J.Gr.10, whereas I have J.Gr.10 (note that I have not made any corrections to this entry based on other info yet, this is exactly what is stated in the original document, unless I have made a typo, and I will check that tomorrow)

Regards and keep up the good work,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
FW 190G-3 WNr 160074 is J.Gr.10 not N.J.Gr.10
Thu Jul 22, 2004 17:30
80.212.199.88

Hi, John.

I have now rechecked the mikrofiche, and if You have noted N.J.Gr.10, this is not what is on the mikrofiche.

As stated earlier, there are three consecutive losses noted for J.Gr.10, with the G-3 in the middle. There are one later entry in the list, also from Redlin, from N.J.Gr.10 but this is Ju 88G-1 WNr 714254, 40% damaged.

I think You should check Your microfilm also, to really see if Yours have N.J.Gr.10 on it. Look at page 3 of the report of 15.03.1945. The lfd.Nr. in my report is 19.

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Norbert Schuchbauer
Fw 190 G-3
Fri Jul 23, 2004 23:07
24.10.93.253

Hi Andreas,
it reads exactly how you stated, this is what I have:
19. 22-02-45 J.Gr. 10 F AF Redlin Low level attack Fw 190 G-3 160074 35%

Source RL III/1197 page 174

Hope this helps,

Norbert

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
GenQu 6 Abt 03.03.1945 lfdNr 25 through 34
Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:35
83.109.137.178


Hi, guys.

I have noticed that the paginated page 30 (page 4 of the report from 03.03.1945) is missing on my microfiche.

Has anyone got these entries?

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John manrho
Which RL-number is it, so we can check? (nm)
Tue Nov 30, 2004 13:48
82.210.64.100

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
RL 2 III 1197
Tue Nov 30, 2004 14:22
83.109.137.178


and the document is:

03.03.45 Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.Nr.140/45 g.Kdos.(V)

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Manrho
Missing here too...
Tue Nov 30, 2004 21:43
81.205.242.244


The page is missing on my microfiche too.....so, in the process of making the microfiche of the original documents, one page was mistakenly forgotten. It should be on the paper copies at Freiburg or at the PRO London. Now we need somebody crazy enough to look for that missing page.....you Andreas :-)))

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
It has been located.....
Wed Dec 1, 2004 09:48
83.109.137.178


in Finnland, by my trusted friend Matti.

I will enter the data on the dbase and send You a link to the records when they have been entered.

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Manrho
Yes, thank you (nm)
Thu Dec 2, 2004 21:31
81.205.242.244