NASM Paul E. Garber Facility Aircraft - 4

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Paul F. Straney
pstrany@norwich.net
NASM Ta-152H Colors?
Wed Oct 3 13:42:40 2001


Hi;
Was wondering if anyone could shed light on the actual colors of the camouflage on the NASM Ta-152H? I understand that some effort has been made toward this goal, but I've not managed to find anything about the result....

Paul

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Dietz
tom.dietz@nasm.si.edu
NASM Ta 152 colors
Thu Oct 4 12:59:36 2001


The USAAFstripped most of the original paint from the airframe before repainting it and transferring it to the Smithsonian. Fortunately, the paintwork on the wood empennage was not stripped and remained intact under the American-applied paint. The horizontal stabilizers and elevators were painted in 82 light green and 83 dark green on their upper surfaces and 76 light blue on their lower surfaces. The remainder of the assembly, including the vertical stabilizer and rudder were 76 with a mottle of 82 and 83. No 81 brown violet was found.

All we have to go on for the rest of the aircraft are the few faded and color-shifted color photographs taken after the war when it was still in its original camouflage with some British and American paint applied over its German markings. Although its certainly possible that other colors were used on the fuselage and wings as a result of prepainting of components before assembly, it seems likely to me that the colors were probably 76/82/83 there too. When the time comes to restore the aircraft, we'll try to locate any traces of the original paint that might remain in protected areas. But we will undoubtedly have to make some educated guesses about the aircraft's original camouflage colors.

Tom Dietz
National Air and Space Museum

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ronnie
Thanks a lot!
Fri Oct 5 16:59:10 2001


I asked this question in the He 219 post already, but you probably missed it.

So concluding:

The NASM Ta 152 is an H-0, W.Nr. 150020, "Green 4" flown by Walter Loos of Stab/JG301. Factory code CW+CJ. Camouflage 76/82/81 with a red-yellow tailband.

Is this correct?


PS. Does anybody know what happened to the airframe of W.Nr. 150167??? Only the engine and parts of the cowling seem to have survived...

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Dietz
NASM Ta 152
Fri Oct 5 18:04:29 2001


You obviously didn't read my earlier post very carefully. There was no 81 found anywhere on the empennage. The only original colors found were 76/82/83. I would be very surprised if any part of the rest of the airframe was originally painted in 81.

The aicraft's Stammkennzeichen were CW + CT. This is confirmed from a flight log entry by Heinrich Beauvais for a flight he made in Ta 152 H-0, WNr. 150020, at Rechlin in February 1945. This is the NASM aircraft.

Although the NASM Ta 152 carried the red and yellow RVD band of JG 301, we will never be completely certain of the color of its tactical number. The number was "4," and it should have been the green Stab color, but no photographs exist showing the original marking. Two that do survive show the outline of the "4" under British-applied paint and a green "4" painted on later in the U.S. My best guess is that the aircraft was "gruene 4" while on strength with Stab/JG 301and that USAAF technicians made some attempt to duplicate the original marking.

The Stammkennzeichen CW + CJ was attributed to the NASM aircraft by the late Jeff Ethel. He suggested that its Werk Nummer might be 150010. About twelve years ago former Focke-Wulf chief test pilot Hans Sander provided me with documentation that the aircraft with Stammkennzeichen CW + CJ was WNr. 150010. We now know that neither is correct for the NASM aircraft. A manufacturer's data plate found in the radio compartment aft of the cockpit proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the NASM aircraft is WNr. 150020.

Ethel also suggested that Walter Loos flew a Ta 152 "gruene 4" during the closing days of the war and claimed a couple of Yaks in it. The NASM aircraft might or might not be the aircraft he flew. We would have to see Loos's log entries for the period, if they survive. If they identify the aircraft he flew by WNr. (uncommon) or Stammkennzeichen (more common), then we can determine if the NASM aircraft was indeed his.

Tom Dietz

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ronnie
.....J is bugging me
Fri Oct 5 18:58:51 2001


Very interesting, thanks a lot for the info.
One thing bugs me still, on the photos taken after the war in the USA, a washed-out J is clearly visible on the fuselage under the cockpit on the port side. Just look here:

http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/images/focke-wulf_ta-152.JPG

If this is CW+CT indeed, how does that J end up there???

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Dietz
NASM Ta 152
Fri Oct 5 19:17:46 2001


That's a very subjective judgement. There is certainly a j-shaped blotch of paint on the fuselage. However, it's almost certainly not German paint. What was under it we'll never know. In any event, by the time that the Ta 152 H was in preproduction and limited production, Stammkennzeichen were no longer being applied to fighters. They were still assigned Stammkennzeichen, but the letters were not painted on the aircraft. Because we will never know for certain what was under that patch of paint, I'm not inclined to waste a lot of time speculating about it. In the absence of evidence found on or in the airframe itself, we have to go with certifiable archival and other historical documentation. The NASM aircraft's WNr. was 150020. The Stammkennzeichen for WNr. 150020 were CW + CT. You are welcome to believe otherwise if you wish. I'm not going to waste any time arguing about it.

Tom Dietz

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ronnie
Re: NASM Ta 152
Fri Oct 5 19:28:52 2001


Thanks for the information.
If you find out more on this unique machine, please let us know!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
NASM Ta 152
Sun Oct 7 23:10:19 2001


Hello
While I agree unfounded speculations concerning the 'J' blotch are unneccessary, I can't resist to point out that the documents may be wrong and misleading. Just trying to clear out such case, when one part of the document is contradictory to another one. http://www.lwag.org/ubb/wink.gif
That's not the reason of my post however. You've mentioned that few faded and shifted photos of Ta 152 are available. Are they original slides? If so, I think there's a distinctive possibility to extract some valuable info from them. In forthcoming issue of either Aeroplane or Fly Past you'll find the article concerning RSA's Spitfire HF.VIII and what has been done with 16mm colour movie with modern computer technologies.
All the best
Franek
PS Would the NASM A/C in wrong colours like eg. Me 109G be overpainted with proper markings in the foreseable future?

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dick Powers
NASM He 219
Mon Jan 21 23:32:08 2002


Saturday I took the scheduled tour of NASM's Garber Facility in Silver Hill, MD. Considering my interest in the night air war, I really lucked out. The He 219 was in the restoration building, partly disassembled and in full view. The fuselage was on a stand, most panels and the nose removed. The canopy and flaps were on separate racks where they could be inspected up close. The wings and tail weren't to be seen. The radar receiver and control stick were sitting on a bench.

I'm not sure how long the 219 will be there, but if you're at all interested in this bird, now would be a fine time to visit the Garber Facility.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dick Powers
NASM He 219
Wed Feb 20 17:46:08 2002
63.150.97.2

Follow the link below to the webcam showing the restoration project.

http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/garber/cam/home.htm

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

richard aigner
Horten 229 V2 colors
Wed Feb 27 07:56:58 2002
212.16.35.198

From the fotos in "Nurflügel" (by R: Horten and Selinger, p.143), and the Monogram Close Up 12, I gather that the Horten V2 (or Ho 229 V2) was painted in two colors, one for the upper, and one for the lower surfaces. Can you provide an educated guess as to what these color were?
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

N.Ishigaki
Re: Horten 229 V2 colors
Thu Feb 28 08:49:33 2002
202.214.125.26

Ho229V3 in silver hill seems like 83/76 painted.(You can find many photos by google serch)
I suppose V2,too.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christoph Vernaleken
Unpublished Do 335 shots...
Wed Mar 20 13:51:32 2002
130.83.244.130

... of the remaining a/c now in storage at Silver Hill, WNr. 240 102, VG+PH.

I recently received scans of the unrestored a/c after arrival at Frankfurt airport in October 1974. If you are interested, take a look at

http://Ju388.de/Do335.html

The page takes a while to load, as several other shots of the same a/c by myself are included. Texts are in German, but not really important :-)

Cheers,

Christoph

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ivo Nienhaus
thanks
Wed Mar 20 15:26:56 2002
193.78.119.38

Christoph,

Thanks for sharing these images with us. I found the picture with the close up of the cockpit especially interesting.

Regards

Ivo

[Richard T Eger]

The French language site 340Squadron.fr.st states its purpose to be:

"Homage to the RAF N°340 Squadron / Group of hunting of French Air Forces Free G.C 4/2 " Island of France " and with the FAFL - FAF of 1940 to 1945"

Of especial Luftwaffe interest are the photo galleries, including German and foreign aircraft in Luftwaffe service and German aircraft in French service and/or markings. The website address is:

http://batfredland.free.fr/340Squadron.htm

1943-1945 Gallerie Luftwaffe - Brief histories with photos of Luftwaffe aircraft.

Fw 190 - 1 b&w, 1 color
Ta 152 - 1 b&w
Me 109G6 - 1 color, black 6
Me 109G14 - 1 color
Me 110 - 1 color
He 219 - 1 color
Do 335 - 2 b&w, 1 color - NASM, VG+PH
Me 262A1 - 1 color, NASM, yellow 7
Me 262B-1a/U1 - 1 color, FE-610
He 162 - 1 color, Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace du Bourget, yellow 1
Me 163 - 1 color
Go 229 - 1 b&w, 1 color of Heller model kit drawing
Ar 234 - 1 b&w
Ar 234C - 1 color?
Me 410A3 - 1 color?
Ju 87 - 1 b&w
Hs 129 - 1 b&w
Hs 129B-3/wa - 1 color profile
Ju 88D - 1 color
Ju 88G6 - 1 b&w
Ju 188 - 1 b&w
Do 217E-2 - 1 b&w
Do 217J-2 - 1 b&w
Leo 451 T - 1 b&w
He 111 - 1 b&w
He 111Z-1 - 1 b&w
He 177 carrying FX1400 Fritz or Hs293a - 1 b&w
Fw 200 - 2 b&w
Ju 290 - 1 b&w
Ju 388 - 1 b&w
Ju 390 - 2 b&w
Me 321 - 1 b&w
Me 323 - 1 b&w, 1 color
Bv 222 - 2 b&w
Bv 222A-0 V8 - 1 b&w
Ju 52 / 3m - 1 b&w
Ju 252 - 2 b&w
Fl 282 - 2 b&w
Fa 223 - 1 b&w
Fa 225 - 1 b&w
Fa 330 - 2 b&w
Fi 156 - 2 color
Bv 141 - 1 b&w
Hs 126 - 2 color
Hs 123 - 1 b&w
Ar 232 - 2 b&w
Si 204 - 1 b&w
DFS 230 - 1 b&w
Go 242 - 1 b&w
Go 244 - 1 b&w
Ju 287V1 - 2 b&w
Messerschmitt P 1101 - 1 b&w
Ba 349 - 2 b&w
Fi 103R - 1 b&w
Mistel 1 - 2 b&w
Mistel 2 - 1 b&w
Dewoitine D 520 - 1 b&w
Ms 406 - 2 b&w
B-17 - 2 b&w
B-24 - 1 b&w
Bv 138 - 2 b&w
He 115 - 1 b&w

<U>Luftwaffe 1943-1945 : organisation et structures</U> - Brief article

1) Généralités et production (General information and production)

- Includes color photo of Fw 190D9

2) Structures et organisation (Structures and organization)

Galerie Forces Aériennes Françaises 1943-1945 (Gallery French Air Forces 1943-1945) - Brief histories with photos.

Focke-Wulf FW 190 A4 alias SNCAC NC 900 - 1 b&w photo
Fieseler Storch Fi 156 alias Morane Saulnier MS 500 Criquet - 1 b&w
Do 335B V14 - 1 b&w
Me 262A2 - 1 b&w
Ju 88A4 - 1 b&w
Ju 188E - 1 b&w
Do 24T - 1 b&w
Mitsubishi A6M2-N - 1 b&w

Organisation F.A.F 1945 - Tabular data. Shows use of much Allied and some German aircraft.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

The Luftwaffe Gallery website main features are its numerous color photos and profiles of Luftwaffe aircraft. The site actually consists of 2 sites, an older site and an updated site. The older site address is:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/9686/luftwaffegallery.html

Sections on the older site are:

Galleries - Color photos, except as noted. No captions. Quantities of photos are listed as - 2, - 3, etc.

<U>Gallery 1</U>

Me 262, V 056 - 1
Me 262, WN 170303 - 1
Bf 109 - 8
MG 151/20 - 1 b&w dwg.
MG 213 - 1 b&w dwg.
MK 103 - 1 b&w dwg.
MK 112 - 1 b&w dwg.
Me 262, WN 170045 - 1 color isometric dwg.
Me 262, V 555 - 1 color isometric dwg.
Me 262, WN 170078 - 1 color profile
Me 262, V 083 - 1 color profile

<U>Gallery 2</U>

Me 262, V 056 - 3
Me 262, V 167 - 2
Bf 109G-2/Trop, WN 10639, black 6, RAFM Hendon - 4
possible Bf 109G-10, WN 151591, Messerschmitt Foundation - 3
Bf 109 - 3

<U>Gallery 3</U>

Bf 109G-2/Trop, WN 10639, Black 6, RAFM Hendon - 4 or 5
possible Bf 109G-10, WN 151591, Messerschmitt Foundation - 3
Bf 109 - 6 or 7

<U>Gallery 4</U>

Bf 109 engine - 1
Bf 110G-4/R-6, WN 730301, D5+RL, RAFM Hendon - 4
DB 605 engine, RAFM Hendon -1
Fw 190F-8/U1 (S-8), WN 584219, Black 38, RAFM Hendon - 3
Fw 190A-8/R6, WN 733682, IWM, London - 1
He 111H-20, WN 701152, NT+5L, RAF Hendon - 1
Ju 87G-2, WN 494083, "RI+JK", RAF Hendon - 1
Fi 103F-1, WN 477663, IWM, London - 1
Bf 110 rudder - 1

<U>Gallery 5</U>

Bf 110 - 5
Bf 109 - 2
Fw 190 - 1
Ta 152H-0, WN 150003, FE-112, postwar photo, now at NASM Garber - 1
Me 163B-1a, WN 191904, Luftwaffe Museum, Gatow - 1
Me 163B-1a, WN 191907, AWM - 1
Me 163B-1a, WN 191916, Yellow 26, National Aviation Museum, Canada - 1
Me 163B-1a - 1

Color Plates - Color profiles, except as noted

<U>Plates 1</U>

Bf 109 - 18

<U>Plates 2</U>

Bf 109 - 18

<U>Plates 3</U>

Fw 190 - 18

<U>Plates 4</U>

Fw 190 - 18

<U>Plates 5</U>

Fw 190 - 18

<U>Plates 6</U>

Fw 190 - 18

<U>Plates 7</U>

Ju 87 - 22

<U>Plates 8</U>

Bf 109 - 18

<U>Plates 9</U>

Bf 109 - 11
Bf 110 - 10

<U>Plates 10</U>

Bf 110 - 8
BF 109 - 1
Fw 190 - 1
Me 262 - 1
He 219 - 1
Ju 88 - 5

<U>Plates 11</U>

Me 262 - 15

<U>Plates 12</U>

Me 262 - 11
Ar 234 - 1
Me 163 - 3
He 162 - 2

<U>Plates 13</U>

Bf 110 - 4
Ar 234 - 1
Fw 190 - 1
Do 215 - 4
Ju 88 - 3
He 219 - 5

<U>Plates 14</U>

Bf 110 - 21

<U>Plates 15</U>

Bf 110 - 19 + 2 isometric drawings

<U>Plates 16</U>

Ju 87 - 16

<U>Plates 17</U>

Ju 87 - 17

Luftwaffe Aces

Table listing aces with 100 or more victories, gving name, rank, unit, confirmed victories, number of 4-engined bombers destroyed, and highest award. Photo and a brief biography are given for each ace.

Luftwaffe Rank Insignia - Aircraft markings for different staff positions within a Gruppe.

Luftwaffe Codes - Text and tables explaining and identifying the 4-digit aircraft code.

Links - Links to 7 Luftwaffe related sites.


The site has an updated second site, which can be accessed by clicking on the sentence:

"For more photos check the new site:http://luftgallery.wronger.com/"

This is on the home page of the older site. The sections are:

Galleries - Here, the photos are captioned - a significant improvement. Many of the photos are repeats from the older site. Included here are both color and b&w photos.

</U>Gallery 1</U>

Bf 109 - 5 color, 1 color profile
Fw 190 - 1 color, 1 b&w
Downed Spitfire inspected by Hans-Joachim Jabs - 1 b&w
Heinmz Schnaufer & crew - 1 b&w

<U>Gallery 2</U>

Bf 109 - 2 color, 1 color profile
Me 163 - 1 color
Ju 88 - 1 color
Bf 110 - 3 color
Me 262, WN 500491, NASM - 1 color
Ju 87, WN 2883 - 1 color (recent photo)
Fw 190 - 3 color, 1

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave Pawlikowski
karaya-one@attbi.com
My trip to the Garber Facility in Maryland
Sun Aug 18 23:20:05 2002
24.60.71.18

I had the oppurtunity to take the tour of the Paul E. Garber restoration facility in Maryland on Saturday. It was a fantastic time, and I took a bunch of photo's showing the variuos aircraft and displays, including the He-219 currently under restoration.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/garber/index.html

We could only see three buildings due to the impending move, but it was still a very informative trip.

Enjoy!

(The color photos of Luftwaffe aircraft, missiles (Loon is U.S. version of V-1), engine and the Japanese Kikka shown on Dave's site at the above address are:

Ba 349 - 4 photos
Hs 293 - 2 photos
X-4 missile - 1 photo
plaque describing X-4 - 1 photo
He 219A restoration - 17 photos
Nakajima Kikka - 2 photos
Loon - 4 photos
BMW 109-003 - 3 photos
Ho 229 - 6 photos
Me 410A-2/U-1 - 5 photos
Ar 196A-5 - 2 photos

Regards,
Richard)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer
Thanks for sharing ...
Mon Aug 19 07:57:21 2002
213.112.136.112

... Your experience with us!

Christer

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave Pawlikowski
Thank you!!
Mon Aug 19 23:19:16 2002
24.60.71.18