AFHRA & NARA Missing Air Crew Reports - 5

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

ike
Lipfert Mustang claims 31.8.44
Sun Aug 18 08:03:26 2002
203.124.2.38

A schwarm led by Lt Fonneckold and a rotte led by Lipfert was attacking the P-51s strafing the Lover airfields in Hungary. from his bio. Lipfert and his wingman engaged 2 P-51. his wingman confirm his kill. his wingman may also obtain a kill.later, Lipfert was involved in a low level pursuit by several Mustang, he successfully escape and obtain another kill on a Mustang.the P-51 crash near a road near Sachsisch Regan Only P-51 was credited to him as stated in the Bio. (the one confirm by his wingman) Lt Fonnekold was kill while he tried to land. Questions:
1) Which American units were the german against?
2) what were the actual losses from the Americans and Germans?
Any infos are apprciated. thanks

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
RE: Lipfert Mustang claims 31.8.44
Sun Aug 18 18:41:55 2002
149.99.119.202

1, The US Mustangs were from the 52nd Fighter Group.
The 48 P-51s claimed 7 Luftwaffe aircraft downed in air battle and some 60 destroyed on ground.
2, The actual US losses are unknown to me, but as I remember, they are higher than usually stated.

Other forum visitors (possibly Carlos Herrera?) might be able to add additional details.

Dénes

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Hans Ploes
P-51 losses
Sun Aug 18 21:46:07 2002
217.224.147.112

Hello

I can find only one MACR:
31.08.1944
P-51D- 5-NA, 44- 13295
52nd FG
MACR 8628

but I have at least three personnel losses of the 52nd FG for this date:
2nd Lt. Paul D. Frazier O-820652 POW
1st Lt. Frank E. Tomlinson O-562219 POW
2nd Lt. Robert L. Davis O-821461 KIA (2nd FS)

Sincerely

Hans

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

C. herrera
52nd FG /8-31-44
Tue Aug 20 04:46:25 2002
67.28.109.66

Hans,

Actually,there are two MACRs for the 52nd FG casualties on this date. For some reason the MACR listing I have only lists one 52nd FG casualty on this date, the one for Lt. Frazier. Thre were four 52nd FG casulaties, all lost to JG-52 Bf-109s.
MACR 8627-2nd Lt. Paul D. Frazier-POW-4th FS
MACR 8628-1st Lt. Frank Edward Tomlinson-POW-2nd FS
No MACR-2nd Lt. Robert L. Davis-KIA-2nd FS
No MACR-Lt. Carlson-prob. KIA-2nd FS

It was obviously a very bitter combat, well told in the book by Helmut Lipfert.

Carlos

I have no Idea why two of the 52nd FG casulaties have MACRs and two others do not. The mission summary for the mission is very detailed and clear, clearly listing the four casaulties.Perhaps someone else on this board can explain better why some MACRs are missing?

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

James
P-51 losses 09/18/44
Fri Aug 23 19:36:07 2002
217.84.9.157

Hello,

I´m looking for infos on P-51 pilots who were downed on 18th Sept. 1944 within the West German area. Names and units would be sufficient, MACR numbers would be great.

Regards, James

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

kb
P51 losses 9/18
Sun Aug 25 02:29:48 2002
207.69.39.87

Not sure these match your criteria but here goes-I have info on 8AF units only.

On this date most 8AF fighter units flew ground support and sweeps in support of Operation Market Garden.
P51 Losses on this date in western Europe:

357FG
Capt BK Seitzinger POW near Susteren MACR 8791
Lt Robert Fandray KIA near Sevelen MACR 8795
Both shot down by enemy aircraft (I don't have info on the type)

359FG
Lt Grover Dean POW near Hengelo, Netherlands MACR 9008
Lt Edwin L Sjoblad MIA near Hengelo, Netherlands MACR 9009
both downed in combat with FW190s

II/JG6 claimed 4 Mustangs on this date in this area.
III/JG300 claimed 1 Mustang near Nieukerk.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

frederik
359th FG on 18/9/44
Sun Aug 25 16:11:17 2002
195.241.25.68

The 369th FS of 359th FG was flying area support for Market Garden in the Apeldoorn area on September 18, 1944. From the 369th FS mission summary:

“Blue and Red flight encountered ME-262 at 15.00 coming from NE in their rear, same altitude 10,000 ft. Plane passed close by, they attempted to follow and Blue flight was almost immediately bounced by 35 gray coloured FW-190’s”

This bounce, which occurred between Apeldoorn and Arnhem near Dieren, resulted in a claim by Lt. Parsons at 15.15 hrs, and two losses: Lt. Sjoblad and Lt. Deen. Lt. Deen, after destroying a FW190 himself, came down in the vicinity of Krefeld and was made prisoner; Lt. Sjoblad came down near Apeldoorn and was KIA. I have tried to link the American claims to Luftwaffe losses, but no success so far

hope this helps

Frederik

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
P-51 losses on 18/09/44
Sat Aug 31 03:07:11 2002
208.188.162.212

P-51 44-13675 355th FG 358th FS
(Fighters) Crashed near Lowicz
1st Lt. Robert O. Peters (KIA) MACR 9238

P-51 42-103317 355th FG 358th FS
(Fighters) Crashed near Lowicz
1st Lt. Joseph J. Vigna (KIA) MACR 9239

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Joerg Mezger
Missing Aircraft
Mon Sep 30 20:02:34 2002
62.104.220.74

Hello Everybody

I´m searching for three lost aircraft in south germany.

1. 8.Oct.1944, P-47, Pilotnr. J-2268 ? Which Fighter group and which Pilot name?

2. 2.Dec.1944, P-47, Pilot Moulan?(KIA), Which Fighter group ?

3. 11.Dec.1944, US Bomber, Crew KIA(maybe all), which Bomb group and name of crew?

All crash sites found, but nothing information about.

Thanks for helping!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joerg

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Republic P-47 Loss - 8 Oct. 1944
Tue Oct 1 18:42:57 2002
198.26.120.13

The "J2268" German reference applies to Missing Air Crew Report 3067 for Republic P-47D-23-RA s/n 42-28033 of 324th Fighter Group, 316th Fighter Squadron, down in the area of Fl.Pl. Böblingen. Pilot was 2nd Lt. Bruce E. Morgan.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joerg Mezger
thanks
Mon Oct 7 16:11:11 2002
62.104.220.91

Dear Anton,
many thanks for helping!! Do you know more about crash sites in South Germany? So could we change information about, if you are interested.

Greetings, Joerg

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Nicholas Robinson
What Messerschmitt group could this have been?
Fri Nov 8 05:49:47 2002
24.201.185.126

My father was a radioman in the 467th Bomb Group stationed at Rackheath, England, during WWII.

I took it upon myself to build a model of his plane (http://www.montrealfood.com/leadinglady.html) and now wish to create its opposite number--a Bf109.

However, in the interests of accuracy, I'd really like to know which squadron/group may have been the ones to intercept my father's missions. (The answer will also be of interest to the 467th historian.)

While he has no recollection of any particular enemy fighters, an account by one of his fellow flyers on a mission I know my father went on may have a clue. Based on what he wrote (below) can anyone hazard a guess as to which group of "ME 109s" this flyer had encountered?

-------------------------story follows:-----
Mission 5 - March 2, 1945

Our overcast weather prevails as we prepare for a mission to Magdeburg, another deep penetration into the heartland of the Reich. Our target is the Krupp tank works, and a re-visitation of the area of my first mission. Magdeburg was considered a tough target as it had a formidable system of anti-aircraft defenses. I won't say that I was very worried about this one, but I was resigned to the realization that it would not be easy.

We flew "Monster", aircraft #4440166, and carried twelve 500 lb. GP bombs. Our position was in the low loft element of the 2nd squadron.

Because of the near solid cloud cover over the target, we were briefed to bomb H2X method, which is by radar. Enemy fighters attacked the group ahead of us but did not hit us at this time.

It was a squadron of ME 109s and they used a frontal attack for openers. This was a tactic we had been briefed on, and is the ultimate game of "Chicken" or "Aerial Roulette". The enemy planes flying in line abreast (wing tip to wing tip) came in headon at the same altitude as the bomber formation.

Their closing speed is over 500 MPH and they start firing when within range. These enemy pilots know that the bombers will not waver, so they are reasonably sure they will not collide unless something goes wrong or they miscalculate.

This is a devastating and terrifying thing to experience. As they approach they roll upside down while firing, and dive under the bomber formation, break off and come back to attack from all directions.

We could not see too much of what was happening because the lead group was some distance ahead and to our right. A couple of the bombers dropped out of the formation trailing smoke.

As we approached the IP we could see flak coming up ahead of the lead squadron, and by the time all three squadrons had made the turn on to the bomb run the barrage became intense and very accurate. As our standard procedure required that we take no evasive action on this leg of our attack, we could not help but feel like the proverbial "sitting ducks". This was perhaps the most nerve wracking part of any mission. It was like the 4th of July grande finale times ten!

One ship in the 3rd squadron lost an engine and we were to find out later that of the 29 planes in our group, 14 received moderate to heavy flak damage. Amazingly no one was wounded.

With great relief we released our bomb loads at 23,000Õ, and still bracketed by bursting shells changed course and altitude to the rally point.

Because of the clouds being socked in over the target we were unable to observe our hits.

We were headed for home , but it wasn't over yet. As we skirted the gun positions of the Hanover/Brunswick area we were attacked by another squadron of ME 109s. This was our first direct encounter with Luftwaffe fighters. They came in behind and to the right of us so we could not see them when we first heard the alert. Now they were all around us like a pack of hornets, and appeared to be working in pairs. They hit our third (trailing) squadron on the first pass, and one of the planes, #117 piloted by Lt. Reed, had an engine shot out. This bomber was the same one that lost an engine over the target, so now they were in serious trouble. With two engines out they could not maintain their speed to keep up with the group. They were now straggling below and behind our formation and easy prey for the German fighters.

Fortunately our own fighter escort had rejoined us after the rally point and wore now engaging the 1099 in dog fights. Two Messerschmitts made a diving pass from 9 o'clock high and disappeared under us. At that instant the plexiglass window beside my head shattered and our right hand manifold pressure gauge and the left side mixture control gauge disintegrated in a split second. My #1 engine was also hit, and there were several holes along the left wing.

It was determined later that a single stray 20MM bullet had done the damage to the instrument panel, tore through the nose wheel compartment, and exited through the lower right of the nose section.

Our tail gunner reported to me an the intercom that Lt. Read's plane was going down trailing a plume of dirty smoke, but was not on fire, and still seemed to be under control. No chutes were seen. As it disappeared in the undercoat my navigator had its position as approximately 25 miles north of Osnabruck and heading toward Dummer Lake a well known check point for aircrews.

Things were happening very fast around us. One of our P-51 Mustangs was shot down and the pilot was seen to bail out.

I was being blasted by sub-zero wind coming through the shattered window when my flight engineer handed me a heavy wool face mask to put over my head. I had to remove my steel helmet. oxygen mask, and goggles to put it on, so I turned the controls over to Tom for a few minutes. The mask felt good against the icy cold and I wore it most of the way back.

As I adjusted my oxygen mask and checked the pressure gauge I could hear some excited chatter on the intercom. Some one said, "Jesus! look out to the left!Ó I could hardly believe my eyes, but there sitting about 40 feet off my left wing was an ME 109. As I stared in shock the German pilot lowered his flaps and landing gear and just flew right along with us.

Two P-51s had "corraled" him and his only safe way out was to slide into our formation. Our fighters could not fire at him and our gunners could not fire at him without hitting each other. For this to happen at all shows the high degree of excitement at and confusion with these encounters.

It seemed like a long time that the German plane hung there, but it was actually only a few minutes. Never again would I be this close to the enemy! Our eyes met as he looked from side to side. Everything seemed so vivid it was almost hypnotic. There was a number 8 just forward of the iron cross painted on the fuselage, and what looked like a yellow serpent on the nose.

Suddenly the wheels and flaps retracted and the plane rolled upside down and disappeared below, the P-51s in pursuit. We never saw them again so do not know the outcome, but we were all rooting for the Luftwaffe pilot and hoped he got away. I thought he was not only daring to do what he did, but very clever also.

We theorized that he may have been out of ammunition or that his guns were jammed when the American fighters closed in on him. He was a skillful pilot to say the least and I would like to have met him after the war just to congratulate him and compare notes.

From the beginning of the enemy attack this whole scenario probably lasted no more then ten minutes. The difference between life and death is measured in minutes and inches.

------end story----------

Thanks in advance for any help.

--Nicholas Robinson

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
467th BG Interceptions
Fri Nov 8 11:26:15 2002
152.163.189.235

Nicholas,

To fully understand what you have asked and the answer(s),
you need to do some basic reading in German air defense against the Eighth AF. I suggest Jeffrey Ethell and Alfred Price, Target Berlin, or perhaps Martin Middlebrook's Schweinfurt-Regensburg Raid.

The above and other sources will show you why it is so difficult to know what GAF fighter units participated in any given interception on any given day. In brief, there were a LOT of GAF fighter units in Reichs air defense, and the Eighth AF attacked a LOT of different targets scattered over most of the European continent. And equally important, the Luftwaffe fought a "fire brigade" defense,
moving units from base to base with astonishing frequency.

Specifically to the story of the single German fighter that you tell, the only way to identify the unit depends on the "yellow serpent" that was observed. If truthfully and correctly observed as such, the serpent was the unit insignia of a Staffel within JG 3, exactly which one could have varied with the time period owing to reorganization and renumbering of the Geschwader's constituent Staffeln.

If you desire more certain and precise identification from readers of this site, you will have to provide exact mission dates to initiate any further research.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nicholas Robinson
Mission date
Fri Nov 8 11:49:49 2002
24.201.185.126

As far as I know, the exact mission date was March 2, 1945.

The page at http://www.467bg.com/mission184.html gives a very sketchy summary of the mission but makes no mention of enemy fighters.

That the plane in this story existed is beyond question: http://www.usaaf467th.org.uk/monster166noseart.html .

A further description of this raid is as follows* (note first line reference to "fighter attacks"):
----------------------------------------------------------
2nd March 1945: Group Mission No. 184 MACR#12850

Target: Tank production factory, Magdeburg, Ger.

B-24H-25-DT 42-51171 "ELI SWOF JR" 790BS

Remarks: Aircraft lost an engine over the target and a further engine from fighter attacks. Dropped back from the formation and was hit by flak which resulted in the ship catching fire. Four of the crew bailed out, one unsuccessfully due to parachute failure (Sgt. Joseph A. Dore). The remaining crew perished with the aircraft upon crashing near Dorstend, Ger. Three POW were F/O Robert F. Herrmann (Navigator), Sgt. Benjamin R. Sharkey (Tail-gunner), and Sgt. Edward N. Gibbs (Gunner).

*Source: http://www.usaaf467th.org.uk/libraryshelfone.html
----------------------------------------------------------
I have further resources upon which to draw if you need them. Thanks for the detailed answers so far--I'll look for more information based on those answers on the Web.

--Nick

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Ian Le Sueur
en830@jerseymail.co.uk
B17 shot down Le Treport , Abbeville area 31/08/43
Fri Jan 31 22:20:31 2003
212.9.30.25

31.08.43 Ofw. Adolf Glunz of 4./JG 26 claimed a B-17 near Le Tréport: at 7.000-8.000 m.

Was this B17 #42-29635 VK-M Auger Head of 358BS 303BG mission #65 to Amiens/Gilsy, France

According to the 303BG Web site, B-17F B17 #42-29635 VK-M 'Auger Head' of 358BS lagged behind formation, pulled out of the formation heading for the coast and seeking cloud cover from attacking enemy fighters. Was last seen going down over Abbeville, under control, with two enemy fighters attacking.

Can anyone confirm this is this is the same B17 as claimed by Glunz and can anyone pinpoint the exact crash location of this aircraft.

Thanks

Ian

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

indianer
According to the "JG 26 War Diary Vol. II"...
Sat Feb 1 08:26:36 2003
202.52.251.127

...by Don Caldwell(I don't know whether you have referenced this)
Addi Glunz claimed a 303 BG B-17 "near" Le Treport at 1932 hrs.
No other B-17 claims by JG 26 reported on this date.


HTH,

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Re: B17 shot down Le Treport , Abbeville area 31/08/43
Sat Feb 1 05:12:47 2003
205.188.197.174

It would appear that the B-17 loss at Le Tréport in which
you are interested is the only known possibility for 31 August 1943. Andrews and Adams, The Mighty Eighth Combat Chronology, shows that B-17F s/n 42-29635 of 303rd Bombardment Group (H)was lost to fighters and crashed near Abbeville, France. This is the only Eighth AF bomber loss attributed to fighters on this day.

From the above aircraft, four men evaded and six were POWs.
One man was Killed In Action. There should be Escape and Evasion reports for the four evaders that very probably would state the crash site. There will also be a "293 file" (individual casualty file) for the crewman KIA, and this, too, will likely state the crash site.

Tying the Adolf Glunz to the above claim, however, may be more difficult. It would appear that the loss occurred in "JG 26 territory" and therefore should be attributed to this Geschwader, but if more than one pilot made a claim for a B-17 during the day, it may be very hard to determine who shot down the American airplane.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joss
JossLeclercq@aol.com
MACR # 470
Sat Feb 1 09:10:44 2003
195.93.66.9

Hello,
this loss is the subject of Missing Air Crew Report 470, which I have. I'll check the microfiche and give any details from it.

hang on !

joss

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joss
some details from MACR # 470
Sat Feb 1 10:11:21 2003
195.93.66.10

Here are statements taken from Missing Air Crew Report # 470. One crew member confirms they were attacked by 8 German fighters.

German Officer in Abbeville airfield told 1st Lt William J. MONAHAN (skipper) that S/Sgt David MILLER (tail gunner) came down dead in his chute with his legs blown off, and that he was buried in Abbeville cemetery. He states MILLER was the fifth out of the B-17.
MONAHAN confirms he was “trailing Group at target” when he left formation, and the B-17 crashed near Dieppe.
S/Sgt Frank KIMOTEK states they were northeast of Amiens when they left formation, and that MILLER bailed out over the outskirts of Dieppe. He was not wounded when he jumped and the parachute opened. During KIMOTEK’s second day on the French soil, a French farmer told him that one of the crew had a lot of bullet holes in him. He couldn’t speak French so he couldn’t get any further information. There were about 8 fighters attacking the B-17 at the time. He states MILLER was the first one to bail out. He believes he pulled out the cord too soon and was in line with the fighters line of fire.
Captain William P. MAHER states he believes that MILLER bailed out in the vicinity of Abbeville. Germans confirmed him at Dulag Luft that MILLER was found dead on the ground with both his legs gone. He states they left formation 20 miles southeast of Abbeville and that the plane crashed 10 miles northeast of Abbeville.
S/Sgt James H. COMER Jr states MILLER bailed out in the vicinity of Amiens. German interrogation officer claimed MILLER was dead upon reaching the ground, that he died of wounds received in thighs, which caused him to bleed to death while descending in chute. Enemy fighters hit MILLER’s position, he believes MILLER was wounded badly as none of the crew knew he had bailed out.
1st Lt Walter HARGROVE (bombardier) states all crew bailed out except the tail gunner.
13th mission for MILLER.
There was a 11th crewmember onboard, photographer Sgt Verdis B. PRYOR.
No reference to Escape and Evasion reports in this MACR..

Hope this helps a little

Joss

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ian Le Sueur
MACR#470
Sun Feb 2 20:37:19 2003
212.9.27.169

Hi Joss

Thanks for the info, this is just what the family are looking for. Is there any chance of getting a copy of this MACR, either by fax or email?

Kind regards

Ian

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joss
I can't print it...
Mon Feb 3 18:03:15 2003
195.93.74.9

I can't print MACRs for the moment, perhaps I could try next week, as I know a microfiche printer in a townhall in Armentières.
What pages would you like ? Which family are you talking about ?

I'll contact you direct if I can print the MACR.

Joss

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ian Le Sueur
MACR470
Mon Feb 3 20:45:54 2003
212.9.7.53

Hi Joss

I'm trying to collate details for the family of T/Sgt Frank Kimotek, they are piecing together an article for their local newspaper, but I am also interested in S/Sgt Walter Hargrove.

These two airmen escaped from France with the help of one particular family in Brest, the Scheidhauers.

The Scheidhauers eldest son was one of the 50 shot after the Great Escape, he had initially crash landed here in Jersey in 1942.

I am in contact with the family and have been slowly piecing together the details behind each of the airmen that they helped from 1943 until mid 1944.

Ian

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Joss
Escape and Evasion reports
Tue Feb 4 18:02:21 2003
195.93.66.15

Hello Ian,

Kimotek must have filed, when he joined allied lines, an Escape & Evasion report, that you (or his next-of-kin) can order from the National Archives at College Park, Maryland, U.S.A.. Hargrove also.
You and them should find details about the circumstances when they were shot down, and the places they've been, and the families who helped them.
U.S. E & E reports are usually more complete than their R.A.F. counterparts (WO 208 series in the P.R.O.).

Joss