BA/MA - Freiburg - 18

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
marcel.hogenhuis@planet.nl
Oberstlt. Hartmann, Fl.Ers.Bat. IV
Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:10
84.31.188.34

Hello,

I came across a Oberstleutnant Kurt Hartmann, Flieger Ersatz Batallion IV, who was posted in Venlo on 11 September 1942.
This is all I know from him so who could provide me with more details deserves a place in heaven!

Many thanks in advance!
Marcel Hogenhuis - Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Hartmann
Tue Oct 19, 2004 13:14
152.163.100.73

It's not much, Marcel, but hopefully it will help a little:

HARTMANN, Kurt. 01.06.41 promo to Maj.(Erg.O.). 01.07.42 in Flieger-Ers.Btl. IV (previously with Fl.H.Kdtr. Delitzsch), promo to Obstlt. 28.07.42 Obstlt., trf from Flieger-Ers.Btl. IV to Behelfs-E-Kdtr. Venlo. 05.12.42 trf from Fl.H.Kdtr. 27/IV to Koflug 6/III.

Evidently, his stay at Venlo only lasted about 4 months. He probably became a Horstkommandant under Koluft 6/III (Gilze-Rijen), but I checked its subordinate Horste and I didn't find his name. Perhaps he was assigned to the Koflug Stab.

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
Hartmann
Tue Oct 19, 2004 16:09
84.31.188.34

Hello Steve,

Don't be modest: this is REALLY helping me a lot!

In the records of the 'Wehrmachtsbefehlshaber in den Niederlanden' or WBN (RW 37) is mentioned that Behelfs E-Kdtr. reorganised/transformed into the Fl.H.Kdtr. (E) 27/VI at least before 4-10-1942 (on this day a Leutnant Hill from the Fl.H.Kdtr. (E)27/VI Venlo transferred to another unit). The same source also mentions that HARTMANN was transferred to the Bef. E-Kdtr.Venlo on 11 Sept.1942 > this closes the gap: Augspurger succeeded him on 5 Dec.1942.

According to RL 20/248 (KTB nr.6 from Kdo.Flughafenbereich 6/III Gilze-Rijen) Fl.H.Kdtr. A(ortsfest) 208/VI was dissolved and reformed into E(verlegungsfähig) 208/XI on 1 April 1944 as did many other Kdtr. in the Netherlands. I can send you a scan of this document if you like?

I will check a signature of a Fl.H.Kommandant under a Namentliche Verlustmeldung from 28 June 1944 when an Unteroffizier Konrad Eydt from Fl.H.Kdtr. E 208/XI died. Can I send a scan to you directly?

Again many thanks for these valuable entries! Finally I am getting somewhere with these 'pencil pilots' !

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis - Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Fliegerhorste
Tue Oct 19, 2004 16:55
205.188.116.79

Glad I could help, Marcel.

If you would care to send a scan of the Namentliche Verlustmeldung of 28 June 1944, that might be useful.

The RL 20/248 document won't be needed, but I do thank you for mentioning it. The date that it gives for the big changeover (1 Apr 44) is of great interest since Kannapin's "Feldpostübersicht" books give 1 Jun 44 as the changeover/renaming date for all of the Fliegerhorstkommandanturen in the Netherlands. I knew from other sources that the real date was 1 April, but I had never found written official confirmation for that date. Thanks to you, now I have it!

Best,

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
the big change
Wed Oct 20, 2004 17:08
84.31.188.34

Hello Steve,

Was in a hurry this morning so I only took that RL 20/248 document with me. From this document it must be understood that they started to form new Fl.H.Kdtrn. on 1.3.1944 first. Then, in March, the former Kommandanturen incorporated in the new ones (minus some Dienststellen). This process was finished at 1th April 1944. The document reads this:

I. Neureglung der Fliegerbodenorganisation
1.) Mit wirkung vom 1.4.1944 werden die Fliegerhorst-Kommandanturen A und E und die Flugplatzkommandos A, B und C organisatorisch aufgelöst und in neu aufzustellende Fl.H.Kdtrn. E (o) = ortsfest, E (v) = verlegungsfähig überführt.

2.) Im Fl.H.Ber. 6/III werden mit Wirkung vom 1.3.44 folgende Fl.H.Kdtrn. E(v) aufgestellt:
Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 206/XI Standort Eindhoven
Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 207/XI Standort Gilze-Rijen
Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 208/XI Standort Venlo
Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 209/XI Standort Volkel

3.) Es werden aufgelöst und in die gem. Ziff. 2.) neu aufzustellen Fl.H.Kdtrn. E(v) überführt:

Fl.H.Kdtr. A 204/VI Eindhoven >> Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 206/XI Eindhoven
Fl.H.Kdtr. A 201/VI Gilze-Rijen >> Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 207/XI Gilze-Rijen AND E 35/VI Woensdrecht
Fl.H.Kdtr. A 208/VI Venlo >> Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 208/XI Venlo
Fl.H.Kdtr. E 38/VI Volkel >> Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) 209/XI Volkel

(...)

5.) Die Überführung in die neuen Fl.H.Kdtr. E(v) erfolgt ohne techn. Betriebe (flieger- und waffentechn. Betriebe). Diese werden gem. Sonderbefehl zur Werftabteilungen (v) zusammengefasst.

(...) etc. etc.
------------------------
So this is the most important part of that document about the big reorganisation: this change occured in the month March 1944, not at 1.6.1944.

Best wishes, Marcel Hogenhuis

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Thanks, Marcel.....
Wed Oct 20, 2004 19:07
64.12.116.141

The 1 Mar 44 date must have been the date of the order announcing the changes, with 1 Apr 44 to be the completion date.

It appears from circumstantial evidence that the effective changeover date for all Horstkommandanturen in the Luftgaukdo. Belg./Nordfr. area was also effective on 1 Apr 44, but official written confirmation is lacking.

However, for the 100+ Horstkommandanturen located in the Luftgaukdo. Westfrankreich area, the circumstantial evidence is more conflicting and confusing. Here again, official written confirmation is lacking.

So, if you ever come across any changeover orders for the Belg./Nordfr. and the Westfrankreich areas, please let me know. I am sure they exist, probably buried in the surviving BA-MA Freiburg RL 20 KTB u.Anlagen documents for the Kommando Flughafenbereiche located in those areas during Mar - Jun 1944.

Thanks again,

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Csaba Becze
Re: Boelcke-Archiv Bände
Thu Oct 21, 2004 09:05
80.139.64.191

It would be nice, it was a very important unit (KG 27) (and the eastern front KTB's not available in Freiburg).

Csaba

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

SES
Luftwaffe Fighter claims 1945
Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:45
80.164.36.36

If I understand an ongoing discussion correctly, there is a problem related to subject. I have come across the following document in BAMA http://www.bundesarchiv.de/index.html

RL 8/ 100 Gen.Kdo.II.Jagdkorps Nachrichtenverbindungswesen, Jan. -Febr.1945.
Tagesabschussmeldungen, Funk- Leuchtfeuer-Objektkennung im Westraum.
which could be helpful.
:-) SES

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Doyle
Bf109-G6 Info
Tue Nov 9, 2004 05:23
144.131.118.238

Hi guy's,
Does anyone have any information concerning Bf109G-6 werke nummer 163824? Any help would be really appreciated.

Doyle

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Re: Bf109-G6 Info
Tue Nov 9, 2004 14:34
24.163.23.156

Bf 109G-6, 163824, Flzg.Überführ.G. 1, 12-Aug-44, Collision on ground with Bf 109G-6 WNr. 20488, Lfl. 10 BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/780, p.92, Fl.Pl. Rheine, 30%

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Michael Gorman
W. Nr. 163824
Tue Nov 9, 2004 16:09
81.130.85.146

Hi Doyle,

Not sure what other information you may be seeking. This aircraft, currently at the Treloar Centre in Australia, is probably one of the most written-about '109s in existence. Amongst others, Brett Green's book "Augsburg's Last Eagles" (Eagle Editions) discusses it extensively, and there are many photos on Lynn Ritger's 109Lair website. John Beaman's loss report entry is interesting, as it shows why the aircraft was remanufactured.

Regards,

Michael Gorman

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Alex Crawford
Uffz Rudolf Frank 2/NJG3
Sun Dec 12, 2004 19:11
82.41.148.167


Hi,

I am looking for some details on the aircraft Uffz Rudolf Frank was flying when he shot down a Lancaster ED810 from 50 Sqn on the night of 15 June 1943. Also where would he have taken off from?

The Lancaster crashed 8km from Antwerp at 01.24am. Five crew members died and one survived possibly as a POW.

Thanks,

Alex

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders Näslund
R.Frank...
Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:45
213.67.227.186


Hello Alex,

Frank and his Bordfunker Hans-Georg Schierholz seems to
have been stationed at Gilze-Rijen between
12.06.43-15.07.43 and then at Juvincourt..

(this from article about HG Schierholz by Ralf Schumann)

dont know wich a/c they flew but my best GUESS is a Me 110..


Regards Anders

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
info@hogenhuis.info
Re: Uffz Rudolf Frank 2/NJG3; Gilze-Rijen
Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:23
84.31.188.34


Hello Alex and Anders,

According to German primary sources (which have their errors too!) Uffz. Rudolf Frank shot down this Lancaster at 0.53 about 8km N of Antwerpen. The actual loss was near the town of Ekeren. It was Franks 9th nocturnal victory and in the administration acknowledged with number 136 (just a number, has nothing to do with the amount of victories).

During the months May, June and July 1943, Uffz.Rudolf Frank - originally pilot of 2./NJG 3 - was detached to the 2./NJG 1. This Staffel under the command of Hptm. Hans Dieter Frank was based at the Dutch airfield of Gilze-Rijen. The nightfighters of this unit usually operated with radar posts in SW Netherlands and NW Belgium. In which type of nightfighter Uffz.Frank started that night I don´t know unfortunately.

(sources: BA/MA Freiburg, Chef Abt.für Auszeichnungen und Disziplin reels C 2037 N and C 2027 N-1; BA/MA Freiburg, RL 20/248 Kriegstagebuch nr.6 von Flughafenbereich 6/III Gilze-Rijen)

Anders, many thanks for your additional info: from many ´guest pilots´ in the I.NJG 1 that summer, we only have rough dates for their posting to this unit. However, we do know their losses and nocturnal victories and that is what counts for history.


Best wishes, Marcel

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Alex Crawford
Uffz Rudolf Frank
Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:16
82.41.148.167


Hi Marcel, Anders,

Thanks for the info.

Alex

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders
just some thoughts :)
Tue Dec 14, 2004 18:58
213.67.227.73


Hello Marcel,

I do hope you are "teasing" me. I do think knowing as much as possible about the NJG people's careers, i.e, where they were posted does count for history not just their losses and victories...

anyway, in article Herr Suchmann writes that the crew was
"im April 1943 zur 2./NJG 3 nach ittmundshafen versetzt und auf das Flugzeugmuster Ju 88 eingewiesen."

could posting to Gilze-Rijen have been a sort of "operational training with the Ju 88"???

all the best

//Anders

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
operational training
Wed Dec 15, 2004 09:49
84.31.188.34


Hello Anders,

You are right: postings, promotions, training courses etc. are important for history too! However, there must be a large portion of unknown nightfighter crews which don´t show up in loss lists, Abschusslisten or other places: they deserve to be known too and certainly we historians would like to know their experiences and careers too. Unfortunately/luckily, their impact on history was less when compared to those who obtained victories (which lead to the loss of an allied bomber and its crew) or those who commanded units. This category left certain marks in archives, records etc. so it is logical to start researches with them.

Now about Uffz.Frank: his posting in Gilze-Rijen with the 2/NJG 1 was the direct result of reinforcing the nightfighter Gruppen of NJG 1 (I.NJG 1 in Venlo and Gilze-Rijen, II.NJG 1 in St.Trond, III.NJG 1 in Twente) during the Battle of the Ruhr March 1943-July 1943. Many experienced or promising pilots from ´workless´ nightfighter units elsewhere, were posted to the Netherlands because the units there could not stop the nightly raids of RAF Bomber Command. In July 1943 they all returned to their original units.
In the case of I.NJG 1 the Abschüsse of the posted guest pilots where added to the score of I.NJG 1, NOT the units where the pilots came from. This was apparantly changed in July 1943 because then the names of the original units appear behind the names from the pilots...

All the best, happy Christmas! Marcel

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders
Thanks and Happy X-mas 2 u 2... (nm)
Wed Dec 15, 2004 22:22
213.67.227.243

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Wim
wim.govaerts@skynet.be
crash at Ekeren
Tue Dec 14, 2004 08:39
81.244.157.34


Hello Alex,

Perhaps this is of some help. This is an extract from a book I wrote in Flemish with regard to Lancaster crashes in Belgium. I presume you are related to the pilot? If so, please contact me off board.
Regards,

Wim

In several waves were the bombers passing over Antwerpen form the west to the east. Laurent de Brucker remembered:" At night, we were again wakened by the anti-aircraft guns. We saw an aircraft in the crossing of the searchlights which was trying to escape from the Flak which was trying to hit it. The Flak at ‘het Laar’ was also doing his best. Then we saw the aircraft coming lower. The Flak went silent. Suddenly was the air lit up by incendiary bombs, after which the aircraft disappeared. At morning in school we learnt that the aircraft had fallen next to ‘het hof Ter Delft’. We went to have a look in the afternoon. The Lancaster lay there, almost intact, and with the cocarde good visible. We could not stay long as a German guard told us to go. On one afternoon while we were at school we heard the explosion of the bomb load which was detonated by the Germans. I think there were no survivors in this crash." Probably was he helped by the searchlights as the Lancaster was shot down by Uffizier Rudolf Frank of 2./NJG3, where upon the aircraft crashed at ‘het Laar’ at Ekeren.The aircraft crashed on the domain of the family Van Delft. The domain consisted out of a castle, and several other houses under which a farm. The oldest son, Armand Lathouwers, of the family who lived on the farm told us:" I slept on the attick directly under the roof and sometimes it sounded as if the aircrafts were just passing over the roof. The first that I noted was some kind of flare which lighted up the area and which was coming down on a parachute. We found this flare the next morning in the forrest, about 50 meters from our house. Shortly after was there a loud bang and one aircraft had fallen very near. We went outside and could see the burning aircraft lying there in our orchard. Under the first trees of the orchard we found two airman, lying next to each other,while the others were still in the cockpit. One other member was lying a bit further on in the field. The German recovery team damaged a lot, as they were cutting down several trees to get to the aircraft and the airmen in the field. Many inhabitants of the village came to see and were hoping to recover a piece of the Lancaster. At one time I was notified that there was still a bomb lying in the field. It had green and blue rings painted on. The bomb was detonated by the Germans and all that was left was a crater of 10 to 15 meters wide. I have always wondered how it came that the two airman were lying next to each other. The threes were not damaged, so they never fell true them. And there is our neighbour, Renée Verresen, who has seen someone running dressed in some kind of flying clothing.» On visiting Mr. Verresen:»That night my father, my brother and I , did see an airman as we came out of the house. He went past the barn and was dressed in a blue uniform. My father shouted to him, but he ran away in the direction of Merksem. Later we were told that this airman was taken prisoner by the Germans of the Flak batterie which was located there." Was there an eight member on board ?, or was this perhaps someone of the resistance ? As a uniform was seen, was it perhaps an other airman who was hidding in the vicinity and who came over to see if he could help. No further information or confirmation on any of these questions could be found.The rear gunner was Kenneth Bowerman. His sister-in-law wrote: " Kenneth was an apprentice confectioner before he was called up on the age of 18. Ken was a rather quiet boy. I would say a bit of a dreamer. I remember his last kindly act was to accompany me with my 4 year old son to London in the ‘black out’ to help me change station at Paddington to Euston on to Glasgow as I was going to stay with my husband who was stationed nearby. He was interested in, and participated in amateur dramatics and play writing." The crew is buried at Schoonselhof Cemetery. In the district where the Lancaster crashed at ‘het Laar’, was an other tragic event reported. After the war were many Canandian soldiers stationed there in one of the fields. They had set up a laundry station. On one day was the camp hit by a V-2 rocket, and only shortly before new troops had arrived, making the casulities very high. The laundry station was one hugh hole and it is still known by inhabitants as the Canadian bloodbath.

[Ken_Cuthbert]

Hi, I have been interested in your discussion albeit I'm coming in fairly late on this. My interest is in Hans Dieter-Frank (who served in I/NJG 1), about whom you have provided some details. Would you, or anyone, know how to find out more details on him, specifically the aircraft he flew and when, and how I would go about finding out more about his career and the details of all his air victories. Also, in researching specific Bomber Command aircraft crashes in Holland are there any specific resources that would be helpful.

Thanks for any help on this matter.

Ken Cuthbert