Luftwaffe Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss lists, layout, format, contents

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all.

On my site Eagles over Norway, located at:

http://www.stormbirds.com/eagles/

From the main page, use the menu on the right and find "Research", click it, then "Luftwaffe losses". A fresh page should appear, with links at the bottom for loss documents of January 2., 9. and 14. 1943.

The documents are in .pdf format. You should be able to download a free Acrobat reader software/plug-in for Your web-browser from Adobe's pages at:

http://www.adobe.com

or from nearly every free-/shareware fileserver like Tucows, CNET etc on the web.

You can find examples of the layout and contents of the loss lists as contained in the RL 2 III series at the Bundesarchiv (and on microfiche/microfilm in several other archives).

The format changed a bit during the war, and I will make som examples for other time periods in the near future.

Original handwritten notes are included, and also scans of signatures on the documents.

Regards,

Andreas

[This message has been edited by Andreas Brekken (edited 13 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Andreas Brekken (edited 14 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 27 November 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Andreas,

I went to your site Eagles over Norway. You have done an excellent job!! This is the sort of information that we need for the LWAG site. From what you have stated above, I thought I would see an example of a loss list, but could not find it. Jaap Woortman sent me an example and, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. I am convinced if it is possible that we should show examples pages in the master reference area of the various documents we reference. Also, it would be helpful to add some description of what the document type is all about. If the document has a non-English title, having the title translated into English would be very helpful.

On an administrative note, when we have both the type of document and where it can be found, we should consider double posting - one post as you have done under documents and one under the country where the document can be found. In the latter case, tho topic would be identified as something like "xyz" at the "abc", "xyz" being the document description and "abc" being the archive & country where the document is located. For Germany, since this is a forum unto itself, the country wouldn't have to be noted.

Double posting can be a pain. If I want to make a decision to do a single post, I would tend to go with the "xyz" at the "abc" approach. However, if the emphasis seems to be on the document type, which it appears to be here, do consider the double posting route.

Double posting assures the best chance that the material will be found by the person searching this site. I've done a number of double posts for that very reason. One actually went to 4 posts, as the author talked about 4 different topic areas. It also allows for the development of additonal discussion, the discussion emphasizing either the document type or the documents in the specific archive.

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 13 July 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Andreas,

I think I ran into the same problem with Eagles over Norway as I have with Stormbirds - sometimes things just don't show up in Netscape that do show up in Microsoft Internet Explorer. The pdf files simply didn't show as accessible in Netscape. I find Netscape comes up faster and prefer it, but...

Having now looked at the 3 sample documents, the first and third seem to be similar, but the second looks different. Would you please elaborate?

If the rest of you haven't taken a look at what Andreas has done, please do so, but back away from your keyboard, as your drooling might short it out!!!

Regards,
Richard

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all.

Regarding the format of the loss lists one can make the following conclusion on how they are constructed:

First the header, which appear on the first page only, includes date, document number and which copy it is.

Then there are:

Berichtigungen (Corrections).
Ergänzungen (Additional information)

A new header line appear in the relevant position with description of the columns in the following pages for the loss data.

Then the losses for the different branches of the Luftwaffe, usually in the following order:

Flakartillerie
Felddivisionen und Fallschirmjägerverbände
Bodenpersonal
Fliegende Verbände

Then there is the grand totals (important for reconstructional work!) which list total losses of personnel (divided in officers/non officers and then MIA/KIA/WIA) and aircraft (damaged/total loss) for a given period (the relevant month and total for the year until date).

The reason that some dates do not have the Berichtigungen or Ergänzungen is that they didn't report any on a given date. The same goes naturally for a given type of unit or a given Luftflotte for example. There are no headers without information following.

Interesting for those looking for missing pieces are the Verteiler, which is a list of which offices received a copy of this document, and how many copies made in total.

Another important comment is the fact that the handwritten comments, which are close to unreadable in many cases usually can be found as either a correction (Berichtigungen)or additional information (Ergänzungen) on a later date. And what might look cryptic like " v/1.3.44" really just is correction or additional information line number "v" reported on 1. March 1944.

Unreadable names or WNr are also easier to find if You are able to find the correction/additional info date, where the relevant information is typed!!

One last but very important comment is:

The Luftwaffe units reported in when they could! I have found examples where losses are reported days, weeks, months and even years after they occured! And sometimes they come in numbers, like for example JG's in North Africa reporting losses for several weeks which are then put into the official report on one date! (Not difficult to see why, they probably had other things to do retreating along the coast!)

Hope this is of some help, and I will edit the post if necessary. (It was necessary)

Andreas http://www.lwag.org/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Andreas Brekken (edited 14 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Andreas Brekken (edited 14 July 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Andreas,

Thank you for your enlightening comments. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't get any feel for why the second example document in Eagles over Norway is different from the first and third. Could you be more specific about these 3 examples?

Regards,
Richard

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again Richard! http://www.lwag.org/ubb/smile.gif

To be more specific, You will see that the first example contain the report from January 2nd 1943, but here there where not corrections (Berichtigungen) and additional information (Ergänzungen) included on a detailed level. Just the loss records reported from the day before and until closure of business hours on January 2nd.

As an attachment, a corrections without details are included on the last pages, to correct the statistics for previous months/years (really for 1940/1941 and 1942 "grand totals).

The second example (January 9th 1943) include the corrections and additional informations. Keep in mind that this is in every instance connected to a loss from a previous date!!

An example is:

Take the first to lines in the Berichtigungen (corrections) from January 9th:

a)Zu Ziffer 35 6.1.43 (Stab/J.G.53 vom 27.9.42) (O.B.S.) Streiche ganz, da identisch mit lfd.Nr.115 vom 2.10.42. Streiche: 1 Flzg. beschädigt(Bf 109 G2 ”Trop”, Werk-Nr.10504).

Meaning: Correction "a" from January 9th: Correction to loss number 35 reported on January 6 1943 (regarding a loss occuring in unit Stab/Jagdgeschwader 53 on September 27th 1942). Strike this, it is identical with loss numer 115 reported on October 2nd 1942. Strike 1 aircraft damaged Bf 109 G2 ”Trop”, Werk-Nr.10504).

b) 57 16.12.42 (Vordruck II)(Transportst.II./Fl.Korps 9.12.42) Fw. Buchholz, Uffz. Janssen nicht tot sondern in engl.Gefangenschaft. Uffz. Horsch, Fw. Rahm nicht tot, sondern vermißt. Streiche: 4 Tote. Setze: 2 Vermißte.

Meaning: Correction "b" from January 9th: Correction to loss number 57 reported on December 16 1942 (regarding a loss occuring in unit Transportstaffel II. Fliegerkorps on December 9th 1942). Fw. Buchholz, Uffz. Janssen not dead, but made POW's by the british. Uffz. Horsch, Fw. Rahm not dead, but missing. Strike: 4 Dead. Insert: 2 Missing.

And so on....

The last example is really like the first one.

I have put out just these three examples, but have many more on the PC........

Sometime I hope to have a complete set....

Andreas



[This message has been edited by Andreas Brekken (edited 14 July 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Andreas,

Your explanations have been most helpful to me and, hopefully, to many of the other members. I would also suggest that you or Jaap cover the significance of the WASt and Luftwaffe Generalstab
Generalquartiermeisterabteilung 6 reports that we have discussed via private e-mail. I am sure our members would be most appreciative of this. You might want to create a separate topic that includes the two in the title as a comparison.

Regards,
Richard