Flugzeugbewegungsmeldungen and Flugzeugbewegungsliste

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Bf 110 Werkenummer
Tue Dec 12 14:42:29 2000


Hi, people.

In the loss lists, Bf 110's with Werkenummer 4500, 4502 and 2651 are listed as Bf 110E-2's. (6.(Z)/JG 5)

When comparing this to the Flugzeugbestand lists of 10.(Z)/JG 5, which are the same unit renamed during March 1942, I find that they list their Bestand as consisting of Bf
110C and D's. In fact, I cannot see a single E-series Bf 110 listed before July 1942. (And now in 13.(Z)/JG 5)

Can anyone with better knowledge of the Bf 110 than me please enlighten me?

Regards,

Andreas Brekken

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Bf 110 in JG 5 Zerstörerstaffeln
Tue Dec 12 15:52:44 2000


The connection of Werknummern-blocks to subtypes of the Bf 110 is not easy for the early C and D-series. Nevertheless loss-reports are quite clear, that a/c in the 2631 - 2660 and 4400 to 4534 range are E-2 and E-3 subtypes.

As for the "Flugzeugbewegungsmeldungen": This is a very important source, but (like all German statistical material) also has its share of mistakes. For example, the "AS"-high-altitude-version of the Bf 109 is only reported at a very late date and only from a few units in spite of certainly being available in larger numbers. The mistake for 13.(Z) /JG 5 is quite evident: At the end of June 1942 the Flugzeugbewegungsliste has 4 Bf 110 C/D and 10 Bf 110 F2. At the beginning of July 1942 this should be the same, but actually 4 Bf 110 C/E (Emil) are reported!
Remember, that in German language "D" and "E" are pronounced very similar. I guess, that E-type Bf 110 were around prior to July 1942, and only the Flugzeugbewegungsliste was wrong

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Artie Bob
W.nr. vs subtype
Tue Dec 12 17:32:59 2000


As a general rule, the RLM W.nr blocks are a pretty good, but not absolutely accurate, method for identifying what subtypes of aircraft were originally produced. They
cannot tell you what subtype the aircraft was at some later date, as in many cases, the subtype was changed by umbau. For example, some Ju 88s originally came off the
line as A-1s and ended up as A-4s, A-12s or A-16s, etc. Many subtypes were only produced through the rebuild process and so none of the W.nrs run sequentially or in a
block. I don't have much data on Bf-110s, but for certain this is true of Bf-109s, Ju 88s, Do 217 etc.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: Werknummern and Aircraft Subtypes
Tue Dec 12 23:38:09 2000


I would simply like to add that both Charles Bavaroise's and Artie Bob's comments are, as usual, perfectly on the mark. There is little doubt that the Luftwaffe
systematically undertook to update Bf 110s just as it did Bf 109s, Ju 88s, and other types. There are, however, presently two difficulties with understanding this. First, the
Luftwaffe community's mindset does not seem willing or able to grasp the great extent and implications of the GAF's rebuild, update, and modification programs. Second,
the GAF's rebuild, update, and modifications programs apparently have never been systematically studied and described. There is, to the best of my knowledge, in this the
year 2000, no satisfactory description and analysis of the Luftwaffe's enormously important efforts to retain, repair, and continuously improve the aircraft in its inventory.
Such a study would be deeply revealing and would illustrate yet again one of the fundamentally different traits of the Luftwaffe as compared with its adversaries.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Andreas Brekken
Errors etc
Wed Dec 13 08:07:39 2000


Hi, Charles, Rabe and Artie

Thanks for the useful answers. I have of course also seen errors and misidentifications earlier.

I think Rabe is touching on a very interesting topic/area for research, which ultimately would bring the understanding of what a complex organisation the Luftwaffe was forward.

As a little comment on this, I have found that a couple of groups in JG 5 "converted" their FW 190A-2's to A-3 standard. This is really just an engine change, but it is interesting to see how this lead to a redesignation in Gruppe level reporting on aircraft inventory, and that the reports were based on the equipments (sometimes....) technical status, and not the WNr and original designation.

Regards,

Andreas