KTB (Kriegstagebuch)

[Richard T Eger]

Rod Mackenzie from New Zealand wrote to me when I asked him for a basic understanding of what this is:

"Fourthly, from my understanding, the Kriegstagebuch is the Luftwaffe equivalent to an Operational Record Book of the R.A.F. It is unfortunate that only a few of the documents survived the war. I think it will be interesting over time to see what the Russians have...."

Rod had previously pointed out a reference that dealt with the KTB's of NJG 6:

""Das Kriegstagebuch des Nachtjagdgeswader 6"
by Werner Koch, Eigenverlag-Wittmund, 1996"

He sent to me 4 sample pages showing what was in the KTB report for this unit for the night of 16./17.03.45.

Some KTB reports are available at the BA/MA - Freiburg. See the topic on "BA/MA - Freiburg" in the forum "Archives in Germany".

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 05 December 2000).]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

marc poole
Luftwaffe claims July 19, 1944
Thu Nov 23 21:13:31 2000


Does anyone have any information on combats or claims in the Munich area on July 19, 1944? I'm trying to help some bomber crews (384th BG) get their stories down
regarding the mission to Hollsriegelskreuth, Germany. Any help is appreciated-

Marc Poole

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Charles Bavaroise
19.7.44 German view - some data
Fri Nov 24 21:43:59 2000


8th and 15th USAAF attacked airfields, and industrial targets in Munich area on 19.7.44.
German fighters from 7 fighter-groups intercepted and claimed 61enemy a/c, but only 30 were finaly allowed (Endgültige Abschußliste 19.7.1944 Süddeutschland").
According to US-sources 8th USAAF lost 17 heavy bombers
and 15th USAAF 15. 7 US-fighters went MIA that day.

Jochen Prien has collected the following data from original German documents
(published in „Chronik der IV. Gruppe Jagdgeschwader 3“):

Unit a/c lost a/c damaged known Claims
IV./JG 3 2 0 4 B-17, 1 B-17 HSS
Stab JG 300 0 0 0
I./JG 300 3 1 1 B-17
II./JG 300 6 0 6 B-24, 1 B-17,
3 P-51, 2 P-38
III./JG 300 0 1 2 B-17, 1 P-51
I./JG 302 5 0 4 B-17, 6 B-17 HSS
II./JG 27 1 3 1 B-17, 1 P-51
II./JG 5 5 2 0

US-fighters also flew ground attacks on German airbases and according to the Kriegstagebuch of Luftgaukommando VII (Freiburg Military Archive RL 19/87) at least
inflicted this damage:

Böblingen 7 a/c damaged,
Grosselfingen 1 He 111 and 1 Bf 109 destroyed
(2 P-47 shot down by flak)
Großsachsenheim 7 Ju 88, 1 Bf 109 destroyed
Hailfingen 7 Ju 88, 2 Do 217 destroyed
Bad Aibling 1 Bf 110 destroyed, 1 Bf 110 damaged 40%

US heavy bombers hit airfields with „Teppichwurf“ („carpet bombing“), heavily damaging ground installations and causing this losses in a/c:

Lechfeld 1 Fi 156,2 W34, 1 Me 262, 1 He 177,
1 Fw 190, 1 Me 210, 1 Bf 109 destroyed
2 Me 262 heavily damaged
6 He 177, 2 Bf 110, 3 Me 210, 1 Me 410,
1 Bf 109, 2 Fw 200, 1 Me 262, 1 C 445
slightly damaged
Leipheim 1 Bü 181, 1 Bf 109, 4 Me 262 destroyed
1 Bf 109, 1 Bf 110 damaged less than 10%
Laupheim 2 Ar 96, 4 Me 410 destroyed
1 Bf 110 damaged 20%, 1 Bf 110 5% and
1 Fw??? 15%
Oberschleißheim a few a/c sligthly damaged.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Nick Beale
Loss lists
Wed Jan 10 19:47:10 2001


The Imperial War Museum in London (www.iwm.org) has 12 reels of microfilm that are missing all of 1944, January 1945 (except a couple of days' reports), some of March
and all of April 1945. The 1943 reels include losses among Luftwaffe ground troops, paratroops, Flak units etc.

They can be bought but I don't know a current price. The Department of Documents reference is GER/MISC/18.

The reels I've looked at (mainly the 1945 material) don't seem to include flying school losses but do have Ergaenzungs and ferry units. THey do have Nachtschlachtgruppen
and Störkampfstaffeln but from what I've seen of 1943 they lost few aircraft at that time. Losses are far higher in 1945 i nthe west.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Loss lists
Wed Jan 10 22:40:43 2001


There are microfiche available from the BA Koblenz that fill in late Dec 44 - Jan 45. Also a wonderful fragment of the Lfl. 6 KTB that details its losses for most of 45. (These
even include fighters that Prien, Fast and other authors have missed.) The 'other' set of losses, 'Flugzeugunfalle und Verluste bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienststellen' are
extensive and cover the period from 1940 thru Sept. 44. These include training, ferrying units, several different Erprob.Kdos and other oddball stuff -- including even some
losses from repair and production facilities.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dick Powers
War Diaries
Fri Apr 13 16:12:20 2001


I would appreciate some general information on “War Diaries” Historians seem to consider war diaries as the ultimate in primary source material.

Were they official documents?
What information was recorded?
What was their purpose, other than to provide a record of operations?
Whose responsibility was it to keep the war diary current?
Was there a form or standard format?
Were war diaries submitted to higher-level command?
Are there central repositories where surviving war diaries (or copies) are kept?

Thanks in advance.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Re: War Diaries
Sat Apr 14 22:27:48 2001


If we can number each of your 7 questions 1 thru 7, then I'll try to cover them without going into too much detail:
1. yes;
2. daily operations in highly abbreviated or summarized format, personnel changes of COs and staff officers, daily weather, an index of incoming and outgoing orders and replies to higher headquarters annotated with file number assigned for cross-reference purposes (these were then filed in the Anlagen zum Kriegstagbuch), and any other matters considered urgent or out of the routine;
3. as above, but they also served as an official record for fixing responsibility if or when something went wrong (i.e., if it was recorded in the KTB then the Kommandeur couldn't deny knowledge of it);
4. generally a junior officer in the grade of Leutnant or Oberleutnant assigned to the Stab, or perhaps a Hauptmann assigned to a Generalkommando in the case of a Fliegerkorps or a Luftflottenkommando;
5. the daily entries were recorded on a form in a standard format specified by Wehrmacht (and Luftwaffe) service regulations;
6. once every six months the KTB with Anlagen were required to be reviewed by the unit CO and certified correct and in order and then forwarded to the service archive in Potsdam near Berlin where they were cataloged and stored as a permanent historical record;
7. all of the surviving German military war diaries (KTBs) with their attachments (Anlagen) are currently maintained at the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv at Freiburg im Breisgau.
Hope this helps,
(Larry)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Re: War Diaries
Sat Apr 14 22:42:18 2001


Thanks very much. When reading, I find references to war diaries, but generally the content is not explained. It would be interesting to see a copy of war diary pages.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
KTB's
Sun Apr 15 13:17:10 2001


Hi, all (just back from a vacation in the mountains, nice!!)

A copy of a "typical" page from a KTB may be difficult to find (and many of them extremely hard to read).

Some were recorded by hand in preprinted (official??) books, like the KTB's from some airfields I have seen. Others were nicely typed on paginated pages and thus MUCH easier to read.

I'll try to put up a couple of pages from one I have in a few days on:

http://www.stormbirds.com/eagles

Regards,

Andreas Brekken

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Charles Bavaroise
He 177 Mistel
Fri Feb 28 17:49:44 2003
62.245.208.247

Peter,

found only one hint:

Kriegstagebuch Chef Technische Luftrüstung for week 8. Jan. to 14. Jan 1945:

>> Mistel 177. New Dates for evaluation-a/c:
1.aircraft 177 1. Feb. 1945
2.aircraft 177 15. Feb. 1945
ready for ferry-flight to Nordhausen <<

There are a few later entries concerning Mistel-aircraft, but He 177 were never mentioned again.

HTH

Carl

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Zamax
KTB, RL and BAMA Freiburg?
Fri Nov 14 13:35:56 2003
212.210.71.3

Perhaps I'm too stupit to understand myself, but someone can explain me what KTB, RL (for ex RL 2 III / 184) and BAMA Freiburg exatly stay for?
I suppose tha KTB are something like war diaries, RL are microfiches and BAMA Freiburg is a site the place of the Bundesarchive.
I'm partially right?

Another question:
In the stormbird.com site (wonderfull) is transcript the files RLM 2 III/1170 through 1172, but what means all the abbreviations used in this example?

Gen.Qu.6.Abt.Nr.880/45 g.Kdos(V) v. 24.1.45 lfd.Nr.13


TIA
Zamax

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Abbreviations
Fri Nov 14 17:42:50 2003
152.163.252.131

KTB = Kriegstagebuch (war diary or war journal).
RL = Reich, Luftwaffe (refers to a Signatur (record group) at BA-MA containing Luftwaffe documents from the period of the Third Reich).
BA-MA = Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv (National Archive - Military Archive) at Freiburg im Breisgau in southwest Germany.
RLM 2 III/1170-72 = Reich - Luftfahrtministerium, Signatur 2 (Generalstab der Luftwaffe) III (Generalquartiermeister)/folders 1170-72 (Personalverluste, Materialverluste; Jagd-, Nachtjagdverbände, 12.44 - 01.45).
Gen.Qu.6.Abt.Nr.880/45 g.Kdos.(V) v. 24.1.45 lfd.Nr.13 = Generalquartiermeister (6th Branch), No. 880/45, Top Secret, dated 24 January 1945, copy No. 13.

If you are going to work with this material, I would strongly suggest you learn some German.

Steve W.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Zamax
Thank you very much (nt) (nm)
Mon Nov 17 13:04:20 2003
212.210.71.3