Richard T Eger
03-04-2002, 11:54 PM
From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:
John Beaman
one more time
Tue Feb 5 12:14:13 2002
216.136.45.130
The following is what I have posted twice previously regarding the subject of the alleged gelb 20 + I of JG 7.
" Some weeks back there was a lively discussion about a Bf 109G, marked gelb 20 + I, that appears on page 13 of Monogram Publication’s CLOSE-UP 7 Gustav, Messerschmitt 109G Part 2. The discussion centered around whether the aircraft was:
1. A G-6 or a G-14
2. If it was from III./JG 7 as listed in CU 7 and whether it had the markings shown in the color profile on page 14.
3. Where the photo might have taken, in France or Northern Italy.
There was some disagreement over these issues. I think we may be able to put most of these issues to rest. Rabe Anton, a frequent visitor to this forum, has found a file in the USAF records at Maxwell AFB that, we believe, answers the questions and leaves only a stone or two unturned.
The file is a report of a prisoner interrogation. It originated with the APWIU (Air Prisoner of War Intelligence Unit) of the 1st Tactical Air Force, numbered 25/1945. The report is dated 22.March 1945. Paraphrasing the 6 page report, the following points emerge:
· A Bf 109G-6 or 14 crash-landed at 1300 hours near Luneville, France.
· The German pilot was defecting. He was not named but was from Berlin.
· The aircraft was listed in the report as a G-4 (sic, typo) or G-6. The report is not certain whether the aircraft was a G-6 or 14 (of which more, anon).
· The aircraft was marked yellow 20 + I and the spinner had a single white spiral.
· No mention is made of any other markings other than the oil fill point triangle on the port side of the nose.
· The pilot’s unit was Ergänzungskampfgruppe (J), a “Verbandsführerschule des General der Kampfflieger” (sic). The school was for the conversion of bomber pilots from KGs 6, 30, 54 and other units unknown to the prisoner. There were 4 Stafflen in the unit. The POW was in the third staffel. The unit was based at Ansbach airfield.
· The POW had been planning to defect for some time. He was ordered to do solo training, doing practice circuits and some acrobatics. He selected an aircraft with full fuel tanks and after a few circuits began his defection flight. After several navigation changes, his engine began to overheat, he smelled burning oil and belly-landed the aircraft.
Now while this report does not definitively establish a link between that photo and the defected aircraft, let me pose the following:
(1) In the third week of March 1945 or later, how many gelb. 20 + I Bf 109s would have come down in the West?
(2) Of the above, how many would have been (apparently) G-6s with a tall tail?
(3) Of the above, how many would have had spiral spinners?
(4) Of the above, how many would have come down on their bellies in a way so closely similar to the report?
Aside from that, not a single Bf 109 is listed on any loss records from JG 7. Surely if the unit had been flying 109s either as "guard" aircraft or trainers, there would have been losses from 10%-100%?
I believe that circumstantial evidence forces one to conclude these are one and the same and the aircraft is not a “guard” aircraft from III./JG 7. Now, some unanswered questions:
1. What about the so-called fuselage “bands”? Well, if you examine the photo closely, the gruppe bar is not painted on a band but a very ragged edged, dark-painted area. This could have easily been an overpainted RVT band from an operational unit aircraft seconded to a training unit. There does appear to be a thin band in between the gruppe bar and the fuselage cross. This could be another overpainted area or it could be a thin yellow band associated with a training unit.
2. What about the III gruppe bar in a unit with a designed 1, 2, 3, and 4 stafflen? I have no idea. One of those mysteries. Perhaps it is not a yellow bar, but a white marking that sometimes appeared on 109s marking the fuselag
John Beaman
one more time
Tue Feb 5 12:14:13 2002
216.136.45.130
The following is what I have posted twice previously regarding the subject of the alleged gelb 20 + I of JG 7.
" Some weeks back there was a lively discussion about a Bf 109G, marked gelb 20 + I, that appears on page 13 of Monogram Publication’s CLOSE-UP 7 Gustav, Messerschmitt 109G Part 2. The discussion centered around whether the aircraft was:
1. A G-6 or a G-14
2. If it was from III./JG 7 as listed in CU 7 and whether it had the markings shown in the color profile on page 14.
3. Where the photo might have taken, in France or Northern Italy.
There was some disagreement over these issues. I think we may be able to put most of these issues to rest. Rabe Anton, a frequent visitor to this forum, has found a file in the USAF records at Maxwell AFB that, we believe, answers the questions and leaves only a stone or two unturned.
The file is a report of a prisoner interrogation. It originated with the APWIU (Air Prisoner of War Intelligence Unit) of the 1st Tactical Air Force, numbered 25/1945. The report is dated 22.March 1945. Paraphrasing the 6 page report, the following points emerge:
· A Bf 109G-6 or 14 crash-landed at 1300 hours near Luneville, France.
· The German pilot was defecting. He was not named but was from Berlin.
· The aircraft was listed in the report as a G-4 (sic, typo) or G-6. The report is not certain whether the aircraft was a G-6 or 14 (of which more, anon).
· The aircraft was marked yellow 20 + I and the spinner had a single white spiral.
· No mention is made of any other markings other than the oil fill point triangle on the port side of the nose.
· The pilot’s unit was Ergänzungskampfgruppe (J), a “Verbandsführerschule des General der Kampfflieger” (sic). The school was for the conversion of bomber pilots from KGs 6, 30, 54 and other units unknown to the prisoner. There were 4 Stafflen in the unit. The POW was in the third staffel. The unit was based at Ansbach airfield.
· The POW had been planning to defect for some time. He was ordered to do solo training, doing practice circuits and some acrobatics. He selected an aircraft with full fuel tanks and after a few circuits began his defection flight. After several navigation changes, his engine began to overheat, he smelled burning oil and belly-landed the aircraft.
Now while this report does not definitively establish a link between that photo and the defected aircraft, let me pose the following:
(1) In the third week of March 1945 or later, how many gelb. 20 + I Bf 109s would have come down in the West?
(2) Of the above, how many would have been (apparently) G-6s with a tall tail?
(3) Of the above, how many would have had spiral spinners?
(4) Of the above, how many would have come down on their bellies in a way so closely similar to the report?
Aside from that, not a single Bf 109 is listed on any loss records from JG 7. Surely if the unit had been flying 109s either as "guard" aircraft or trainers, there would have been losses from 10%-100%?
I believe that circumstantial evidence forces one to conclude these are one and the same and the aircraft is not a “guard” aircraft from III./JG 7. Now, some unanswered questions:
1. What about the so-called fuselage “bands”? Well, if you examine the photo closely, the gruppe bar is not painted on a band but a very ragged edged, dark-painted area. This could have easily been an overpainted RVT band from an operational unit aircraft seconded to a training unit. There does appear to be a thin band in between the gruppe bar and the fuselage cross. This could be another overpainted area or it could be a thin yellow band associated with a training unit.
2. What about the III gruppe bar in a unit with a designed 1, 2, 3, and 4 stafflen? I have no idea. One of those mysteries. Perhaps it is not a yellow bar, but a white marking that sometimes appeared on 109s marking the fuselag