ADI(K) Reports

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!

Artie Bob
End of war document collection
Thu Jun 1 13:15:49 2000


Actually there was a well organized effort to collect documents at the end of the European war, althought the main thrust was technical and war crimes related and
less toward military operational items. My current main interest is in the Allied captured document center in Paris, which was used by ADI(K) (and distributed to other
RAF intelligence sections), USSBS, and USN ONI for starters. IMHO it was probably used by CIOS, War Crimes Tribunal, etc. If there can be found records of this
organization, it seems likely that the accessions lists of what documents were held and their destinations might be possible. I have seen copies of some of the ADI
(K) lists from this source.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
Unidentified Archive Records
Thu Jun 1 14:12:11 2000


Dear Andreas,

I certainly agree with your observation that records exist that we don't know anything about. Anyone who has had actual access to the materials, themselves, knows
what little treasures are buried in archives that simply aren't in some sort of index. And, the indexes, themselves, are only as good as the people who created them
and selected the search terms for us to go looking. Here's a few examples.

The Desk Catalog of Captured German and Japanese Air-Technical Documents lists a wealth of documents on and related to the Me 262 in the microfilms now at the
NASM Garber facility. However, even this extensive catalog fails to list all the pertinent documents OR they have been catalogued so obscurely that you'd really need
a fortune teller to locate them for you. What to do? You begin to think logically. Someone had to have originally sat down with a stack of captured documents and put
them under a microfilm camera, one sheet at a time. They were photographed in sequence. Chances are pretty good that a lot of the documents in a stack were
related. So, now you go to the desk catalog and start to find reels of microfilms with multiple listings. Then you look through the whole thing starting from a bit before
the first listing to a bit after the last listing. And, guess what? You pick up some unexpected fish on the way!!

Same thing when you can get access to the shelves, themselves. The dustier, the better. Those old CIOS or BIOS reports that have been sitting there for 55 years
and no one has ever looked at or don't even know are in the collection are wonderful little treasures. Where to look? Use the decimal system and go look at what's
there under the pertinent subject.

Artie Bob mentioned the ADI(K) reports. Well, Artie Bob, they're at the AFHRA at Maxwell. They are catalogued under 512.619B. Here's a case where you know you
have an interesting series of reports and you just start at the beginning and work through to the end. Not rocket science.

As for lousy indexing, I went to the Thomas Register recently trying to find companies that made 15" x 15" paper trimmer boards so I could trim my old records from
the PRO for proper filing and, try as I may, there just was no entry I could find where they were listed. I finally went to the search engine Lycos, where the records
were easily accessible. The point is that some data bases are good, while others are virtually useless. And, I doubt, any are even close to perfect or complete.

With 13 copies of the 1944 losses having been printed, there is a fairly decent chance at least one set has survived somewhere. It would take a lot of researchers
being very persistent in archives to try to unearth them. In reality, going on such a search mission with a specific objective in mind is something akin to looking for the
proverbial needle in a haystack. The huge benefit is that, in the search, an awful lot of terrific material will be uncovered. This I guarantee.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Artie Bob
ADI(K) documents
Thu Jun 1 19:02:11 2000


I am not refering to the ADI(K) interrogation reports, a rather incomplete set of which resides at HRA. I am talking about the actual captured documents. Apparently
ADI(K) was the RAF intelligence organization which collected the captured documents and distributed these to other RAF and Allied intelligence organzations (even
before the end of the war). The accession lists I am talking about contain titles of documents, manuals, production materials, drawings,correspondence, etc. Just the
titles are enough to excite the interest of any Luftwaffe nut. These documents are sadly, not at HRA.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
ADI(K) Source Documents
Thu Jun 1 20:18:13 2000


Dear Artie Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. The logical repository for such source records, or at least microfilms of same, would be in Great Britain. The question, equally obvious, is
where? Whether the originals were returned to Germany, perhaps, can be answered by other board members. Let's hope no one took a match to them!

In digging through my copies of AFHRA ADI(K) documents, I did find one dated revised 4th March, 1945, entitled "THE HANDLING OF G.A.F. DOCUMENTS". The
overview states:

"The following outline gives an account of the present system of collection, appreciation, registration, duplication and distribution of captured G.A.F. documents as
employed by A.D.I.(K) (and U.S. component)."

There is a document flow diagram. It is entitled "The Present Flow of G.A.F. Documents and of Intelligence Therefrom". The following is just the G.A.F. document flow:

M.I.R.S. > A.I.12/P.H.S.

ADI(K) > photo copying > specialist sections

ADI(K) > photo copying > A.I.12/P.H.S.

The following may be of further help:

"Post Hostilities.

(2) Documents of interest to Post Hostilities Intelligence are despatched to A.I.12 P.H.S. Air Ministry where a duplicate reference library is being built up against the
time when the British and U.S. forces take over their respective zones of occupation.

(3) It has been agreed that A.I.12, with additional officers attached from Post Hostilities Section D. of I. U.S.S.T.A.F., should become, at least temporarily, the holding
library of all documents except those of a purely technical, scientific or historical nature."

Comments, anyone?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Simon Parry
'K' Reports
Fri Jun 2 16:18:41 2000


Sorry to seem flippant Andears, I really do hope someone can find the 1944 losses.

As for the ADI(k) files. After years of being locked away a complete set was released a few years back at the PRO under the AIR40 Class. Prior to that some early
reports had been released in AIR16 (Fighter Command) but were closed almost immediately. It has been said this was after the publication of the book 'The Great
Coupe' as it gave information about the Ju88 crew that defected to Dyce. Although the AIR40 stuff is available, the AIR16 copies are still closed!

At the end of the war ADI(k) carried on issuing reports into 1946 as scientists etc. were interrogated. Post war almost all the work of ADI)k) was burnt or otherwise
destroyed as was the material collected by AI(g), whose collection of aircraft and component ID plates was unearthed at Kenley where it had been buried in a tip.

Simon

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Richard T. Eger
ADI(K) Reports
Fri Jun 2 17:22:13 2000


Dear Simon,

I think there should have been more than one set. Do you have any proof that any of these records were, indeed, burned? In reviewing the document I quoted earlier, it
looks like there may have been as many as 4 sets. One thing needs clarification, though. By photo copying, it looks like they were talking about photostating, rather
than microfilming. The notes already given say that there was at least a duplicate set. The negatives of the pohotostats were originally registered by the ADI(K)
Documents Section, but, at least as of the Mar. 4, 1945 date, were being sent to D. of I., U.S.S.T.A.F. In addition, documents considered of historical importance
were ticketed and registered for eventual transmission to the Air Historical Branch of the Air Ministry.

A note on photostats, for those not familiar with this older copying process. Photostats were the primo means of making hard copies of existing documents in WW II.
It utilizes a photographic process. Picture a huge camera where the negative is actually photographic paper. The document is positioned on a board with proper
lighting and the negative paper exposed. It is then processed similar to a photo. The processing can be automatic, but this much detail I'm not that sure of. The image
is negative. If you want a positive image, you have to repeat the process using the negative image. You can get fairly decent photos this way, but they tend to be a bit
contrasty.

The above explains the comments about the negative ADI(K) source document set.

That's good news about the set now available in Air 40. Artie Bob was commenting that he didn't think the set at AFHRA was complete. Your sharing of this
information has added to the collective whole of our archives knowledge. Many thanks.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave Pawlikowski
Schrage Muzik - RAF response?
Sun Jan 6 20:33:20 2002


As I write a small piece about this cannon mount system for my website, I cannot find any Allied response to it in which to include.

Seeing as this system seemed to be a very popular and safer system to knock down a Halifax or Lancaster than an approach from direct astern, why didn't the RAF try to mount a ball turrent, like on a Fortress or Liberator?

The RAF must have figured out how these planes were being destroyed, and they did examine bombers that survived this attack and made it home. Wasn't it possible to update the RAF airframes in order to give themslves belly protectiuon?

Or not? I'm very curious. Thank you!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Cynrik De Decker
Schräge Musik
Wed Jan 9 23:33:07 2002


There is no doubt the Allies knew about the existance of Schräge Musik in an early stage. I do have here a report (A.D.I.(K)) of a 5./NJG-crew taken POW on Oct. 6, 1944. It states :
"All aircraft are armed with "Schräge Musik" - upward firing cannon."
An indication the RAFallready knew the system a long time before. And think about all the NF-a/c lost over liberated territory (starting from June '44) - all closely examined by RAF Intelligence.
The main problem was to modify that huge bomber force with belly turrets. This was impossible, it would damage the production process of the needed aircraft. Indeed the turrets mentioned before were of (almost) no use agains night fighters. The moment a belly gunner saw a night fighter below in the hole he was looking trough, it was too late. Remember the gunner was sitting in the fuselage, unlike the American Sperry Ball Turret gunner, who had a clear view on what was happening around him "in space". Besides the weight of the .50 cal gun and the ammo, there was also the eighth airman on board, which could be lost as well.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Graham Boak
Early?
Wed Jan 16 17:54:21 2002


That's pretty late on in the war. I would say, without actually going to the books to check, that the RAF (as opposed to a limited number of individuals) was not aware of the Schrage Musik as late as the infamous Nuremberg raid earlier in 1944. Pre D-Day, so no chance of investigating crashes on friendly French soil.

Does anyone have a date for the "Meaconed" Ju88 night fighter (not the R)? I suspect that "blew the gaff" finally.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Cynrik De Decker
Schräge Musik
Wed Jan 16 20:25:50 2002


You're definitely right, Graham. But I only wanted to share some historical evidence as to when the RAF defenitely knew about the existence of the new system. I am sure the Allies must have made reports before the date I mentioned, and maybe someone else on this board can share an excerpt of a wartime document on this subject which has an earlier date.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

David Pausey
Help needed in identifying Luftwaffe recon unit,crew MTO
Tue Mar 26 21:37:54 2002
195.92.67.75

Hello all
Can anybody help me identify the units & crew of the following aircraft:29-2-44 Ju88T-1 wnr430926 DO+FN crew KIA shot down 6m SE of Derna,Cyrenaica by two Spitfire 9's.
Date? report date 8-5-44 Me410A-3 ??+RK crew KIA shot down by two Spitfire 9's near Vasto,Italy.
3-7-44 Ju88T-1 8H+ZH crew POW forced down by two Spitfires 40m E of Oran (near Port aux Pouls)
Regards David.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Aufklärer
Wed Mar 27 22:40:44 2002
212.159.25.15

Me 410A-3 +RK of 2.(F)/122 (Werk Nummer 170098; full code almost certainly F6+RK) was shot down at 0730 on 15 April 1944. The crew were Uffz Albert Allrich (pilot, KIA) and Uffz. Erwin Lehmann (Observer, KIA). They’d taken off from Perugia at 06.44 hours.
Ju88T-1 8H+ZH was an aircraft of 1.(F)/33, callsign GI+WY, operating out of St Martin de Craux (Les Chanoines) in southern France. Pilot, Ofw. Helmuth Knapp; Beobachter, Fw. Götz von Houwald; Bordfunker, Fw Günther Schmidt. All three taken prisoner.
After developing engine trouble over Oran harbour, the Ju 88 was making for Spain when it encountered two Spitfires and the pilot belly landed it “without appreciable damage to the aircraft” at 14.00hrs. No. 256 Squadron’s Operations Record Book credits this victory to Spitfire Mk. VIII s/n JF 584 of C Flight of RAF flown by W/O Hally. he was operating out of La Senia and made the interception 25 miles due north of Oran at 21,000ft. He took off at 13.15 and landed at 14.15 hours (source PRO AIR27/1519 and /1524).
I don’t have anything definite on the first aircraft you mentioned (I don’t really do North Africa) beyond a reference to a 1.(F)/33 Ju 88 crew said by a prisoner to have been “lost early in March” on a mission to Africa — the date discrepancy may be just be a memory lapse — Olt. Pander (pilot or Beobachter), a Leutnant (name not recalled, pilot or Beobachter), Uffz. Keller (Bordfunker) and Uffz. Mendyka (Bordschütze).
These incidents are relatively easy to follow up. Prisoner interrogation reports (including examination of the effects of dead aircrew) by Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre (CSDIC) are held by the USAF Historical Research Agency and by the Public Record Office in London (in series AIR51). Further reports were compiled in London by the RAF’s Air Directorate of Intelligence (K) — known as A.D.I.(K) — and their files are in series AIR40 at the PRO and on microfilm at USAFHRA. The daily operations/intelligence summaries of the Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Forces (and their predecessor, NW African TAF) at the PRO will tell you who claimed which unit claimed what on a given day. From there the ORBs of RAF Squadrons will get you to the individual pilots/aircraft concerned and you’ve a reasonable chance of getting the pilot’s sortie report as well. If you’re prepared to spend long enough looking through lists, you may also get a brief report on the wreck of an aircraft, if the Allies examined it.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Bill Norman
AD1(k) report 274/40
Fri Jul 19 08:08:45 2002
195.93.34.183

Can anyone please provide me with a copy of report AD1(k) 274/40 (or should it be AI1(k) 274/40 ?) relating to a He.111 shot down off NE coast on 15.8.40?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
ADI(K) reports
Fri Jul 19 19:12:56 2002
212.159.20.186

I can't provide a copy but you should be able to obtain one from the Public Record Office. These reports are in file series AIR40.

Go to www.pro.gov.uk (http://www.pro.gov.uk) and search under "prisoners of war" or "captured enemy airmen". I think that there's an online information leaflet about PWs that will offer a bit more guidance. The site also tells you about ordering documents.

Alternatively, the USAF Historical Research agency has these reports on microfilm and I'm sure Rabe Anton, who posts here regularly, can point you to the right place in their records.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bill Norman
ADI(k) reports
Fri Jul 19 19:51:13 2002
195.93.49.158

Thanks, Nick.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
A.D.I.(K) Reports
Fri Jul 19 19:46:17 2002
198.26.120.13

Nick is correct in that the AFHRA holds a fragmentary collection of A.D.I.(K) reports. So far as is known, however, it holds none earlier than 1942.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bill Norman
Re: A.D.I.(K) Reports
Fri Jul 19 20:56:39 2002
195.93.49.158

Thanks, Rabe - sounds like my kind of luck!

[Richard T Eger]

From further within the thread on TOCH!:

John Vasco
AI1(k) reports
Sun Jul 21 12:46:46 2002
195.92.194.12

Steve,

Has the MOD(AHB) released the contents of all 'K' reports to the PRO?

I went through AIR 40 some years ago, and it was all general stuff, like how they could tell where someone was stationed from the bus ticket found on them when captured, and such like. But no names or 'pack drill'.

I understood that the 'K' reports were embargoed for 75(?) years.

Any enlightenment would be appreciated.


Regards,

John Vasco

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
ADI(K)
Sun Jul 21 18:53:29 2002
212.159.20.186

Yes John, they lifted the embargo early - but some time after I had bought the reports for late 1943 onward on microfilm from the USAFHRA.

Hence, I've hardly looked at the paper versions in the PRO except a couple of times when I'd been unable to read something clearly from the films. I can't be precise about the file references, only that they are in the higher-numbered reached of AIR40, being something of a late addition to the series.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Steve Coates
A.D.I.(K) Reports
Sun Jul 21 20:22:14 2002
62.7.38.26

John,

Exact references are AIR40/2394 - 2426 (9/39 - 2/46). Parked right next to these in AIR40/2427 - 2431 are what are described as Fighter Command POW Interrogations which might be of similar interest although I've never had occasion to look at these. Time to get yourself back to the PRO ! A lot of other interesting material is finding itself into the HW series.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Chris Goss
Re: AD1(k) report 274/40
Sat Jul 20 06:32:46 2002
80.40.78.5

Bill: If you have no luck, contact me direct and I will get it for you. However, at this stage of the war, the 'K' reports tended to be very sketchy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bill Norman
Re: AD1(k) report 274/40
Sat Jul 20 08:23:26 2002
195.93.34.159

Thanks,Chris. A number of people are looking at the moment. I'll let you know what transpires