WASt A/C loss vs. LW Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. injury/death reports; missing loss reports

[Richard T Eger]

In private e-mailings between myself, Jaap Woortman, and Andreas Brekken, I felt I was given a good explanation as to how the reports from these two organizations related to each other. I'm going to excerpt from this series of letters here.

Following this, I will present from 12 O'clock High! from June & July 1998 further comparison discussions of these organizations. At that time, the focus was on the missing aircraft loss lists from 1944, but also discussed was the restricted access to the personnel records of Luftwaffe Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From: Richard T. Eger
Sent: 13 July 2026 21:43
To: Jaap Wortman
CC: Andreas Brekken
Subject: Re: Loss list example.

Dear Jaap,

Thanks for sending me the loss list and the WASt list.

I'm going to ask some dumb questions. Would you describe the purpose of
each, what organization issued them, and where they are now available? What
does WASt stand for, both in German and translated into English? Where does
Luftwaffe Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss lists fit into this? Again, what is this
in German and English? Was your first transmission an example from this
organization? With yours and Andreas help, I may actually start to
understand these things. My bet is that I am not alone in this confusion.

This, in part, is the reason I initiated the LWAG site creation discussion.
I know things about the U.S. archives that you may not, and vice versa. So,
we benefit by pooling our resources.

Warmest regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From: Andreas Brekken
Sent: 14 July 2026 08:12
To: Richard T Eger, Jaap Woortman
Subject: SV: Loss list example.

Hi, Richard and Jaap

I have posted a description of the loss list "format" to the LWAG site.

I'll try to translate some of the names of the organizations/offices
mentioned:

WASt was formed shortly before WWII broke out as a result of the Geneva
convention I believe. I do believe the shortform stands for
Wehrmachtaufkundungsstelle (Roughly translated: Information/Notification
office of the armed forces) (or something very close to this...). It was an
office which was to keep records of foreign POW's and also keep records of
all members of the German Wehrmacht killed/wounded/missing while in duty.

During the war and in the period folllowing VE-Day, the office moved several
times, but kept doing their business under supervision of the occupying
forces after the war.

To my knowledge, a large (huge!!!) amount of data stored in the former East
Germany (Potsdam barracks) was moved to WASt in 1990. I have also heard that
this was the real reason for the office not assisting researchers in the
same fashion after this date, too much work had to be done regarding the
large amount of new documents available!

Today the office is called Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), and is located on
Eichborndamm in Berlin.

Their main task is to keep records to inform relatives of former
Wehrmachtsangehörige (Members of the armed forces) of their fate etc.

The Luftwaffe Generalstab Generalquartiermeisterabteilung 6 is another
issue....
(I find it hard to translate this, but Generalquartiermeister would be a
military position/job, so this person would leed the unit).

This unit was (according to my information, sorry no source, I just can't
remember where I got this) given the task to keep records of all losses of
the Luftwaffe. The reason is of course to make numbers available for the OKL
and their underlying offices to make decisions on where to direct resupplies
of both personnel and other equipment. So this was not really more than a
"number counting" office for the High Command. We should appreciate the fact
that they kept records of personnel names at all!

I hope that this and the answer on LWAG clear things up a bit, Richard. Do
not hesitate to ask further!

Andreas

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 24 July 2026).]

[Richard T Eger]

From: Jaap Woortman
Sent: 14 July 2026 10:27
To: Richard T. Eger, Andreas Brekken
Subject: Loss Lists and WASt

Dear friends,

I have received both your e-mails and feel the urge to answer and correct
them, where necessary.
First Andreas.
WASt = Wehrmachtauskunftstelle. Or Deutsche Dienststelle(WASt) Die
Auskunftstelle für Wehrmachtsnachweise or as they say in their letters:
Deutsche Dienststelle für die Benachrichtigung der nächsten Angehörigen von
Gefallenen der ehemaligen deutschen Wehrmacht. Richard, is it not wonderful
to be able to read, write and be able to understood three languages?
For the rest, Andreas, your explanation is correct only I have always
thought that their main task was to give information to the authorities for
pensions of Wehrmacht personnel.
Generalquarteirmeister der Luftwaffe was responsible for Supply of all goods
in the Air force. So is was a little bit more than just a counting office!

Richard,
In the heading of the loss list after the column family name comes the place
of birth. Then Gefallen(=dead), Verwundet Schwer or Leicht(= hurt heavy or
light), Vermisst(Pow) and then information if dead outside the hospital
treatment.
The t of WASt belongs with the S to Stelle.
I agree with you there are no dumb question, only dumb answers.
And the only dumb question is the question that has not been asked!

Jaap

[Richard T Eger]

From here, I pick up on the thread from 12 O'clock High! from June and July 1998 which also discusses the relationship between these two organizations, with a focus toward the missing loss lists from 1944.

Simon Parry
Missing records
Wed Jun 10 05:21:39 1998


Following on from the items on Luftwaffe records held in archives, I wonder if anyone has a theory about the missing Quartermasters Returns. These are a listing of Luftwaffe losses (Veriustmeldung) throughout the war and have been used by many researchers from the time of Mason in Battle over Britain through to my own work Blitz-then and Now and other books. Although not infalable they act as a good guide to casualties. The mystery is what happened to 1944? The files held at the IWM London end a few days into 1944 and re-start in 1945! Anyone have a theory? Anyone have 1944 losses?

Simon

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

John Beaman
missing records
Thu Jun 11 08:07:02 1998


The Verlust records, which are material loss records, are the ones where the year 1944 is missing. The Verlustmeldung are the personnel loss records. The difference is that the former is for aircraft and while usually including the pilot, not always so. The latter are for personnel losses and usually include the aircraft, but not always so. They act as a great cross check.

The problem is that the Verlustmeldung do include the year 1944. However, they have been closed to public availability since 1990 when the Germany's reunited. The official "excuse" I have heard is that the people in the archive office are so overwhelmed by requests from potential pensioners from the former DDR, that they do not have the time to respond to requests from non-veteran researchers. The unoffical reason I've heard is that people were using the records to badger and harass families and widows for metals and photos, so the records were closed. It remains to be seen if they'll ever be open again.

In the meantime, we continue to "piece together" 1944. It's a tedious process dependent on very fragmentary records held by veterans. Frankly, I think the Verlust for 1944 are somewhere in an archives. Based on my experiences, most national archive institutions do not know many items they have. I've found things totally uncatalogued or so badly catalogued, that you only found it by accident. Perhaps someone will stumble across those records someday.



[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 24 July 2026).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Denes Bernad
Lost documents
Thu Jun 11 22:59:18 1998


The story i heard is the following: in the last days of war, an order was issued to immediately destroy the entire documentation of the IIIrd Reich, including the Luftwaffe loss lists and all still & cine film.
However, the anonymous director of the Reich's archives didn't carry out the order, but courageously ordered instead everything to be loaded onto three refrigerator trucks. He instructed the drivers to go westwards and surrender to the Allies (not the Russians, of course).
Reportedly two of the three trucks did arrive in Allies' lines, one being captured by U.S. troops - this was at the NA and recently returned to Germany, presently being stored at several Bundesarchiv sites. The other truck reach the French lines - this material being still kept by the French authorities, without any sign of being considered to be returned to Germany. As for the third truck, well, it disappeared, most likely falling victim to an air attack, thus being lost for good (chances to be recovered from a dark corner of one of the victors' archives being slim, unfortunately). The story was indirectly confirmed to me last summer by the staff of Bundesarchiv in Koblenz, who said that the French indeed have a large part of the ex-Reich's official material and they show no intention even to collaborate (i.e., to loan some documents) with the Germans. So much for the mutual French-German friendship...
Can anyone confirm this?
Has somebody heard more?

Denes

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

John Manrho
lost records
Fri Jun 12 16:59:05 1998


Well Denes, your story about the trucks and the unwillingness of the French is new to me. At least it is definite that the records of the Deutsche Dienststelle (WAST) were in the hands of the French for a long period after the war. I heard a rumour that at some time they were planning to dump the Nam. Verlustmeldungen but that the Americans prevented it...

The search for the 1944 Quartermaster records is in my opinion one of the most discussed items between Luftwaffe historians especially since the fall of the Berlin wall. many of us expected that they would be found in the records of the former DDR, but I believe that we can rule this out now. Rumour also was that the Militararchiv in Freiburg found them, but during my last visit in the summer of 1997 they denied it.

The last months the rumour is that they have been offered for sale to some German Luftwaffe historians, but no one I contacted could confirm this. I still believe that they will be found someday and it will definetely solve many Luftwaffe losses we are unable to identify nowadays.

John M.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Denes Bernad
Loss Luftwaffe records and the French
Fri Jun 12 17:17:35 1998


Well, John, my posting was also based on rumours, as - obviously - no concrete proof exists of the ignominious third truck, loaded with parts of the IIIrd Reich's documents, being destroyed.
However, the very existence of large numbers of Luftwaffe PK prints at E.C.P.A.-Paris seems to support the theory of the second truck being captured by French troops. More, as I have written in my previous posting, the personnel at Bundesarchiv-Koblenz confirmed that they, too, are aware of a large quantity of material being hold in French archives, but they couldn't give me details, only that French officials were turning down the Germans' requests for any sort of co-operation. That's all I have heard.
I, too, hope that the documents related to the prime year of 1944 will eventually surface, including thousands of PK shots, in our lifetimes (50 more years to go, hopefully) http://lwag.org/ubb/redface.gif)

Denes

P.S. BTW, does anybody know what were the East-German (i.e., ex-Soviet) archives actually holding in the matter of the Luftwaffe is concerned? Again, at Koblenz they told me, not much...

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Francis Marshall
Lost records
Thu Jul 9 04:24:14 1998


Hi all,
I can make a small addition to all this.
Before the re-unification there was an archive in the Eastern part in Potsdam.
On re-unification this was to be absorbed into the BA, and in fact the Freiburg section has officially moved there - although apparently there are still records in Freiburg.
The new part is that apparently a load of WASt documents (personnel losses) were found in the east and the process of combining these with the originals in Berlin that contributed to the closing of WASt for researchers. Note that if you come across a pilot who's interested in his own record he can still access the information.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Don Caldwell
LW personnel records
Fri Jun 12 00:06:15 1998


Both of the reasons John gives for the closure of the personnel records to private researchers have be given to me by the archivists. A "Datenschutzgesetz" or data privacy law was in effect in the 1970s and 1980s, and only researchers with "access" were allowed in. The law apparently expired or weakened in the late 80's but was reinstated at the request of veterans' families via their legislators because they were being badgered by "researchers" (i.e., collectors and groupies.) Then came the reunification "crunch". At the present time only veterans and their families can get info from the WASt, the German personnel bureau holding the LW personnel loss records. As John says, the 1944 personnel and material loss "holes" are being filled laboriously, bit by bit, by a number of private researchers. I share his hope that the 1944 material loss list exists, mis-filed in some archive.

I hope this helps.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Simon Parry
That's that!
Fri Jun 12 08:16:57 1998

Thanks one and all for your response to this query. I think this one of the fullest answers I have seen on this discussion group.

Seems that that the traditional theories hold true about the missing files. What I find curious though is that only the calendar year 1944 has gone, exactly 12 months, then we start again in 1945. This tends to throw the truck / railway wagon theory out, why put 1944 in another truck? All a bit academic really, but interesting for the true guru.

Perhaps this is like the quest for the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Luftwaffe Records doesn't trip off the tongue too well though!

Simon

[Simon Parry]

Dear Richard / Jaap,

Thanks for assembling the various thoughts in one thread. I was very struck by Jaap's little posting in another thread regarding the 1944 losses, "...in BA/MA at Freiburg I made the following note:"RL 2 III/843-873 Gen.St.Gen.Qu.6.Abteilung - Materialverluste 1941-1945(Not open) It contained 31 "Bänder" of all Luftwaffe units!"

I was just wondering if anyone with a good understanding of the German language could find out if there was any possibility of these files being made avaialable. It does seen strange that one set is "open" and one "closed".

Any takers??

Simon

[Michael Holm]

Hi,

RL 2 III/843-873 are open, and can be used.
The documents have been used by Jochen Prien to collect material losses for 1944.
The documents contain only material losses (no pilot names, and no Werkno.), collected day by day, and unit by unit. The 1944 fighter losses begin in RL 2 III/852.
The documents have never been microfilmed, but copies can be obtained from SELKE, only on A4 paper, which of course makes them very expensive (RL 2 III/852 alone, probably over 250 DM)




------------------
Michael Holm

[Carl E. Charles]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS,Verdana, Arial[/IMG]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Holm:
Hi,

RL 2 III/843-873 are open, and can be used.
The documents have been used by Jochen Prien to collect material losses for 1944.
The documents contain only material losses (no pilot names, and no Werkno.), collected day by day, and unit by unit. The 1944 fighter losses begin in RL 2 III/852.
The documents have never been microfilmed, but copies can be obtained from SELKE, only on A4 paper, which of course makes them very expensive (RL 2 III/852 alone, probably over 250 DM)


[/quote]

[Carl E. Charles]

Some additional information on Michaels post:

The RL 2 III/ 843 - 873 files are a sumary compiled from the "original" Quatermaster-reports. The files are ordered by units (for Jagdgeschwader for every Gruppe!) and day. The reported time is 22. July 1941 to 31. January 1945.
For every day there is only the number of losses per unit and the cause. The causes are:

1 Combat Missing
2 Combat Flak Total loss
3 Combat Flak Damaged
4 Combat Gunfire Total loss
observed by enenemy
5 Combat Gunfire Total loss Not observed by enemy
6 Combat Gunfire Damaged
observed by enemy
7 Combat Gunfire Damaged
Not watched by enemy
8 Combat Infantrie Total loss
9 Combat Infantrie Damaged
10 Ground-loss Bombs Total loss
11 Ground-loss Bombs Damaged
12 Ground-loss Gunfire Total loss
13 Ground-loss Gunfire Damaged
14 Ground-loss Artillery Total loss
15 Ground-loss Artillery Damaged
There are also columns for a/c losses without enemy action. "Gunfire" is aircraft guns.

The type of aircraft usually is only mentioned, if the a/c was not the regular outfit. No information on location, pilot ot Werknummer. With the files, you are able to build up a frame for the lost 1944 Gerneralquartiermeister-reports which is quite good to have an overview to real German attrition.

The orignal-files are mostly written with a pencil and are hardly readable. The format is near to German DIN A3, this is quite large
and copies from the Bundesarchiv are expensive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS,Verdana, Arial[/IMG]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carl E. Charles:
[/quote]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Charles Bavaroise
KG (J) losses - where to find
Fri Oct 27 08:59:55 2026


Hello Chris!

Main source for losses of KG (J)s are the 1945 GQM-reports ("Generalquartiermeister 6. Abteilung - Flugzeugverluste und Unfälle bei den fliegenden Verbänden) available
on micro-fiche at the Bundesarchiv - Militärarchiv - at Freiburg. As you know, access to the "Namentliche Verlustmeldungen" i.e. personal-loss-reports at Berlin
("WASt-reports") is not possible at this time due to newer German law. I was lucky enough to complete my information with some help from a fellow researcher, who over
25 years ago was able to draw some handwritten lists from WASt-files and let me have a look on them.

Luftwaffe strenght returns for some days of April 1945 are also available at Freiburg. Unfortunatelly the files are on a very low quality paper and it is nearly impossible to get
them copied properly. You may try to get copies anyway, but I myself did it the hard way: going to Freiburg with a pencil and write them down.

[Richard T Eger]

In the following thread from 12 O'clock High!, the reader will note that Charles Bavaroise utilized both the GQM-reports and WASt for his information. From what I have been able to gather so far, the dates in the WASt reports are more accurate than those on the GQM reports, so a cross-reference such as Charles has done provides the most accurate information.

From 12 O'clock High!:

Theron P. Snell
III/KG 100 Losses, 4 October 1943
Thu Dec 14 23:01:08 2026


I am looking to document the losses of III/KG 100 during an air attack on Convoy UGS-18 in the Mediterranean on 4 October 1943; Do 217's used Hs 293 bombs, sinking
the FORT FITZGERALD and damaging three others. According to M. Griehl in "Donier 217-317-417," at least four Do 217's were lost, including one piloted by Hauptmann
Molinnus that crashed upon landing at Istres. There also may have been HE 111's from III/KG 26 involved in the attack.

I want to identify the aircraft in the attack, the aircraft shot down and the names of the aircrews. At least two survivors were rescued by British escorts. Where can I look,
and who can I contact?

Theron P. Snell
[email protected]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Charles Bavaroise
KG 100 losses
Fri Dec 15 10:57:30 2026


II. Gruppe /KG 100, not III. Gruppe was involved in the fighting on 4. October 1943. Only one a/c was destoyed
(with its crew killed), the other three had minor damage due to heavy landings, most probably caused by enemy action.
All a/c were Do 217 E-5 subtypes:

WNr. 5660, 6N+ CC, Stab II./100, crash, 100%
Istres airfield
WNr. 5602, II./100, crashlanding, 10 %
Istres airfield
WNr. 5412, II./100, crashlanding, 20%
Istres airfield
WNr. 5645, II./100, crashlanding, 25%
Salon de Provence airfield.

Information it from GQM-reports and WASt.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Theron P. Snell
II/KG 100
Fri Dec 15 12:05:59 2026


Charles:

Thank you for the very fast reply. I do have a couple of follow-up questions. Would you contact me off-list?

Theron P. Snell
[email protected]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Nick Beale
Loss lists
Wed Jan 10 19:47:10 2026


The Imperial War Museum in London (www.iwm.org) has 12 reels of microfilm that are missing all of 1944, January 1945 (except a couple of days' reports), some of March
and all of April 1945. The 1943 reels include losses among Luftwaffe ground troops, paratroops, Flak units etc.

They can be bought but I don't know a current price. The Department of Documents reference is GER/MISC/18.

The reels I've looked at (mainly the 1945 material) don't seem to include flying school losses but do have Ergaenzungs and ferry units. THey do have Nachtschlachtgruppen
and Störkampfstaffeln but from what I've seen of 1943 they lost few aircraft at that time. Losses are far higher in 1945 i nthe west.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Loss lists
Wed Jan 10 22:40:43 2026


There are microfiche available from the BA Koblenz that fill in late Dec 44 - Jan 45. Also a wonderful fragment of the Lfl. 6 KTB that details its losses for most of 45. (These
even include fighters that Prien, Fast and other authors have missed.) The 'other' set of losses, 'Flugzeugunfalle und Verluste bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienststellen' are
extensive and cover the period from 1940 thru Sept. 44. These include training, ferrying units, several different Erprob.Kdos and other oddball stuff -- including even some
losses from repair and production facilities.

[Jon van der Maas]

A late response to the discussion but maybe usefull. During the war every german unit of the army, airforce and navy had to report its casualties (wounded, killed, missing) to the Wast office, the socalled VERLUSTMELDUNG covering a period of time for the particular unit. The Wast office is the registry branch of human casualties but incorporated additional details from the unit on aircraft, ship or equipment in which and were the casualty occured. Next to that details of the grave location, if any, and specification of wounds sustained were entered. For instance when you take the VERLUSTMELDUNGEN for an german airfield you will find not only casualties of the airfield personnel sustained during bombing raids but also on downed allied aircraft. For instance an Hafenkommandant in France registering allied casualties brought into port by german ships after fighting on sea. The VERLUSTMELDUNGEN at the Wast are stored by unit number.
Now get this. The General Quartermaster is an position you find in most german units such as infantry divisions and higher staffs.
He is the guy responsible for personnel and equipment losses, in this case he = ABTEILUNG 6 of the Generalstab in the OKL (Oberkommando der Luftwaffe): High command of the Airforce. If you look at the front page of an particular VERLUSTMELDUNG, remember it covers a periode of time, its a bound volume of sheets, it has an mailing list were copies of these things were sent to: the Wast and for Luftwaffe casualties, indeed, Abteilung 6, of the Quartermaster Abteilung in the OKL. You can say the spreadsheet of quartermaster losses is based upon the VERLUSTMELDUNGEN.
All german war records travel the world in copies. This has to do with the capture of the documents in the years after May 1945. Most original stuff is back in germany now and available in the archives. However copies are widespread. The original captors had everything copied for working with it and before returning it. From these sources other countries, archives, universities bought their copied share of the pie.
The question of life is, if the allies captured german records as mentioned before, where would be there copied pile of VERLUSTMELDUNGEN ?

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Jon,

Welcome to the LWAG site membership. You have brought us a nice history describing exactly what the Verlustmeldungen were. Your question about where all the copies of the captured reports are is interesting but, wouldn't the originals be at WASt today? Further, did they ever leave WASt after the war? WASt seems to be that rare institution that has existed continuously since before the war, or at least that is my understanding of it.

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 25 June 2026).]

[Jon van der Maas]

Dear Richard,

The history of the WASt can be found in Record Group RW 48 at the Bundes- und Militararchiv in Freiburg, Germany. Indeed
all original VERLUSTMELDUNGEN are at the WASt in Berlin but what about the copies made of this huge pile ? The allies were able to get their hands upon them in 1945. Copies of VERLUSTMELDUNGEN on downed allied aircraft can be found nowadays in the National Archives in Washington, USA and the closed records of the RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service at London.
Its my guess the answer can be found in the records of the allied units dealing with the capture, handling, storage and research of the german records after the war such as the Berlin Document Center. Perhaps somewhere in the National Archives ? I have not been able to locate these records through internet access of the NARA. Any assistance from an expert would be appreciated.