Search for Loss Data for 1944

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Joint effort to locate missing loss data from 1944
Thu Jun 1 10:52:39 2026


Hi, people.

From time to time, (or rather often) this topic arises (is it possible to locate the loss data from 1944.....??????)

We all know that the BA haven't got it in their ordinary store (although some people have told me that they have got it, but filed in the wrong place, and only a small
number of well informed researchers know how to locate it). I personally believe this last "story" to be one of those urban legends about the Luftwaffe.

Now, to business:

The loss lists we are used to seeing are reports from the Stab at the Generalquartiermeister Abteilung 6 (please forgive me, even You Rabe if I got the designation
wrong, I tried a course called "Reker'n booze" which involves chilisause, shrimps, tequila, beer ++ last night and I am not quite up to standards today...)

These were made in at least 13 copies, and spread around the german controlled world to different headquarters.

My point is: Have "we", the research community, followed all these trails? I feel that until all these tracks have been covered, the possibility to find new information are
there.

Also, in for example Norway, I am pretty sure that the loss reports for units of Luftflotte 5 was sent not directly to the Stab GenQuAbt6, but was gathered and
prepared at Stab Luftflotte before they were sent on. Could this be correct?

In that case it should be possible to find at least some information here in Norway (unfortunately the archives in Norway are closed until 2026 unless You have a
special permit, but You can get an answer from them about the contents of the archives (is something there related to the topic)).

This is really a message in the Richard T thread on archives, which I believe to be important.

BUT! Please take a moment and think about which of the following units You have stumbled across on Your way through the archives, think of where, and let the rest
of the community know:

In January 1943:
1 copy to Reichsmarschall (Göring got his own copy, thrilling to read I am sure....)
1 copy to Statssekretär der Luftfahrt und Generalinspekteur der Luftwaffe (Generalluftzeugmeister)
1 copy to Luftwaffe Führungsstab
3 copies to L.P. Chefabteilung (Luftwaffe Personnell??)
2 copies to L.P. I/IV
1 copy to Chef für Flugsicherheit
1 copy to L.E.2 (meaning what ??)
3 copies to Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. 6 (including the one we are used to see, usually issue 13)

In February 1945:

1 copy to Reichsmarschall (Göring got his own copy, thrilling to read I am sure....)
1 copy to Generalinspekteur der Luftwaffe
3 copies to L.P. Chefabteilung III (Luftwaffe Personnell??)
2 copies to L.P. 2
1 copy to General der Fliegerausbildung
1 copy to Chef Nachschub der Luftwaffe (2. Abt)
3 copies to Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. 6
Entwurf (Durchslag) was issue 13


Have a nice day all,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Simon Parry
Indiana Jones' 'Search for the Holy Archive'
Thu Jun 1 12:54:41 2026


I'm right behind you old chap!

It would also be interesting to discover the history of the surviving copy, that is who 'captured' it in the first place and where did go for immediate post war years before
being returned to the German archive?

I have mentioned it before, but for the record, here is the story recounted by the IWM archivist about 15 years ago.

1/ The records were in a convoy of vehicles that were captured.
2/ One of the vehicles was destroyed, and bang goes the 1944 losses.
3/ The surviving records were microfilmed in the early 1960s and returned to Germany.
4/ The German archives have made enquiries themselves as to the whereabouts of the 1944 losses.

I am sure that most of this is folk law and it doesn't stand up too well as a story, but that's all there is.

On the line of further copies surviving, is it a fluke that we have anything at all? Surely very little survived in post war Germany itself (East or West) and a load of paper
would have seemed unimportant at the time - good when coal ran short I suppose - so the records we have were 'saved' by the Allies in their dash for technical and
research data.

Any more thoughts on Indiana Jones' 'Search for the Holy Archive'?

Simon

[Richard T Eger]

The following is a message from Jaap Woortman that appeared on 12 O'clock High!. The thread was originally inquiring about Luftwaffe Quartermaster Losses - Mediterranean, which can be found in the Archives in Western Europe area. At this point, Jaap mentioned the coming availability of a Luftwaffe Losses CD. This is where the current thread picks up:

Jaap Woortman
QMG.
Wed Jun 21 21:53:32 2026


Wrong Johan Schuurman, it was IWM and not PRO.
Besides Biblio Verlag has announced that they will publish the Luftwaffe Losses on CD-ROM. Price DM890.

Jaap

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Michel Lavigne
Message to Jaap Woortman
Thu Jun 22 02:03:56 2026


Friend,
Thanks for info.

I'm not familiar at all with Biblio Verlag. Could you let me have an address. I would definitely be interested in ordering the CD-Rom on Luftwaffe Losses of WW2.
Does Bibio Verlag have a web site, or E-mail address.

Thanks in advance, Michel Lavigne

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: Luftwaffe 6.Abt Quartermeister General Daily Reports
Fri Jun 23 12:32:12 2026


Michael,

I have to wonder if you know that you are heading for trouble in so urgently trying to acquire the Luftwaffe Genstab Quartermeister General 6.Abt daily materiel loss
reports. So too, possibly, are those panting in line to buy the advertised CD ROM disc.

The daily loss records are a part, but only a part, of German sources that bear on Luftwaffe losses in air war in the Mediterranean. The daily returns are to some
degree
incomplete, but worse, MUCH worse than this, the blind
acceptance of the entries for each day will lead to
gross delusion and misrepresentation. The problem is
that losses on a given day date could be reported two
days later, five days later, a week later, or six months
later. In other words, to obtain approximations of
each day's loss, one must work his way through ALL of the
records to the end of the war, since a loss could be reported at any time following its occurence.

We do not yet know if the CD ROM advertised addresses this
problem or not. I, for one, believe that the amount of work
involved to properly prepare a Luftwaffe losses data base
would be staggering (ask Jim Perry and George Morrison if
you don't believe me). Moreover, even if the daily returns
were properly and completely organized, one still has other
BA-MA and Allied sources to cope with (CSDIC reports, for
example) that will significantly affect the totals.

A history of the Mediterranean air war would be nice, no
doubt of it, but are you sure that you have a grip on
what's going to be involved to make it accurate and reliable? The job is simply staggering—and I've not
mentioned use of ULTRA and thousands of other sources
not related to losses. . . .

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Michel Lavigne
Thanks to Beale, D'Amico, Anton & Beaman
Sat Jun 24 04:32:09 2026


Friends,

You are absolutely superb. All your information will be useful for my next book. To you, John Beaman, thanks for your good advice on CD-Rom re-Quartermaster
Losses.
Cheers, friends,
Michel Lavigne

[Richard T Eger]

From TOH!:

Ferdinando D'Amico
You're welcome...and a doubt
Sat Jun 24 12:42:02 2026


Mr. Lavigne, I am having the impression that you are relying upon the informations you collect in this discussion group to complete your book... while this is the most
interesting, useful and probably the best informed place of the whole internet about LW data and although a lot of the contributors posting here are higly skilled
researchers, my humble personal opinion is that you could not simply rely on the data you are receiving here, not even by myself!

What are the sources of the informations? How can you cross check the data you obtain without a second source or (even better) access to the main source?

I guess that a visit to the PRO in Kew, London, to the Bundesarchiv Freiburg and to the Ufficio Storico of the Italian Air Force in Rome are inevitable, unless you want
to print data without any official confirmation...

This is how I think it would be smarter and safe to behave before going into print and this is the humble advice I am giving (unsolicited) to you... If i am wrong in my
impression, I ask you publicly to forgive me, but I simply felt I had to say this.

All the best

Ferdinando D'Amico

[Jaap Woortman]

Ob.d.L. Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.(IC) loss list for 1944 or the missing Amber Room.

The missing loss list for 1944 can be compared with the lost Amber Room. From time to time it enters our discussion. But WE have an alternative, as the researchers for the Amber Room does not have! You will say, an alternative? Yes, Andreas you don't have to look for one of the other 16 files of the distribution list! The only thing you have to do is research. Let me explain. I wish I was able to show you Ishikawa's fishbone diagram for this problem, but I will try to explain it to you in text. We all know that the Luftwaffe loss list for 1944 is missing. Of course it is very handy to have a survey of missing and crashed planes of 1944, allthough it was not 100% reliable, but we CAN live without it. The first thing you have to do is try to find out the structure of the organisation of the Luftwaffe in your country. Every country was a Luftgau or part of a Luftgau. The Luftgau was divided in two or more Flughafenbereiche, and a Flughafenbereich had a certain amount of Fliegerhorstkommandanturen. All had a number or name or a combination of numbers. All information went from Fl.H.Kdt. to Flughafenbereich and then to the Luftgau. This means three sources for information. Now the flying units. As we can see in the loss lists of 1939 till 1944 the information is given per Luftflotte. But a Luftflotte was divided in Fliegerdivisionen and a Fliegerdivision in two or more Geschwader, the flying units. So again three possibilities for information. How to find these units. There are several possibilities. Make contact with associations, look for information about cementeries(underground activities during the war) or look for bills from carpenters. Pay a visit to Holm's webpage or look for Police reports. Sources enough but it will cost you time, time and time. And then when you have a "complete" picture go to the BA-MA in Freiburg and look for the dairies of the units you have found. Be prepared!

Jaap

[Simon Parry]

Has anyone thought of getting together the casualty reports from WAST to help fill the gaps. When putting together the losses over Britain for 1944 'After the Battle' secured all losses for each unit operating over Britain for the period. Since then the records have not been available, but I am told they are now open for business and a contact of mine hase obtained the casualties for a Gruppe of KG40 from 1939 to 1945.

Has anyone recently obtained documents from WAST? Or is anyone interested in trading/compiling previously obtained material?

Best wishes to you all

Simon

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Simon,

Now is a great time to try the search feature, as another member also is interested in the WAST records. Just go to search, type in WAST, request all forums, hit enter, and wait about a minute. That's one of the really nice features of this licensed UBB software. Try it!!!

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

Dear Simon,

Well, I got that half right - there is another post which you will find regarding WAST. What I goofed on, however, is that Georges-Didier Rohrbacher, who wrote the message, is not a current member, as the message was transferred by me from 12 O'clock High!. If you want to reach Georges-Didier directly, his e-mail address is [email protected].

Regards,
Richard

PS. You might want to encourage him to come join us!!

[Jaap Woortman]

Of course checking the WAST files is a possibility but there is still another way, besides the one I have mentioned before!
My good friend Marcel Hogenhuis took me by my ears today and pulled them very hard, while he was saying: you should now your own BA/MA files, Jaap! And he was right, because in BA/MA at Freiburg I made the following note:"RL 2 III/843-873 Gen.St.Gen.Qu.6.Abteilung - Materialverluste 1941-1945(Not open) It contained 31 "Bänder" of all Luftwaffe units!

Jaap

[Simon Parry]

Dear Jaap,

What news! But can we be sure that these contain the 1944 losses? The set we are all familiar with bridges the gap and has a few 1944/45 entries so the IWM index shows 44 and 45. But there again, these start at 1941!

Do you think it would be possible to find out and perhaps to enquire of the BA/MA why this is closed and the sister copy open?

Simon

[Simon Parry]

Whoops!

Just checked Ardreas' page for the references and see that these are not listed.

Simon

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

J.L.Thorsteinsson
Is there a LW loss report for 1944 or after?
Fri Aug 24 02:28:56 2026


Hello there.
When trying to verify Luftwaffe combat losses in the european theatre in 1944, I seem to be completely unable to find any proper lists of those.
Are there any?
Best regards.
JLT

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Loss lists 1944
Fri Aug 24 07:54:47 2026


Hi, and welcome to the quest for the holy grail.....

The simple answer is "No", but then it isn't that simple after all.

The Generalquartiermeister listings which are the primary source for Luftwaffe loss data are missing for almost the whole 1944.

They are present however for most of 1945 (until April 1st), and some 1944 losses appear in the data reported in 1945.

In addition, all losses where personnel were posted as missing, injured or died, are recorded in the so called Namentliche Verlustemeldungen, which where sent to Berlin and which are stil there (WASt). There are limited access to these however.

In addition, loss returns are given with less detail in other files, where just numbers and type of aircraft are given, no Werkenummer etc.

+ logbooks
+ war diarys from different units
+++

Some people have retraced a lot of 1944 losses from secondary sources and made a big effort concerning this. If You are primarily interested in the fighter units, I guess that the new book series from Prien will contain A LOT of loss returns from this period when they get to 1944.

This is of course just general info, but I think You get a hang of it. Head over to LWAG at:

http://lwag.org

and follow the threads there for more exact info.

Regards,

Andreas Brekken

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Csaba Becze
Crashed Ju 88 on 5 April, 1944
Sun Feb 16 22:51:51 2026
193.6.243.149

On 5 April, 1944 a German Ju 88 was downed by the Soviet AA artillery. The plane crashed in flames, and the crew perished. Their target was east of Brody, and the Ju 88 crashed behind the German lines. Does anybody know the exact unit of this plane?

Csaba

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
What you and everyone else who inquires about losses.....
Mon Feb 17 00:21:43 2026
67.242.219.141

from 1944 should be aware of is that the surviving loss documents that are in general circulation, namely the General Quartermaster reports, stop at the end of 1943 and don't continue until very late in 1944. By late I mean like the last week or two of December. The General Quartermaster reports then continue until about April 1945 -- but are very incomplete. What does exist are casualty reports for losses during 1944 and, in general, these are not available to researchers. Bits and pieces have been published in various books, these primarily in works from researchers who managed to record this data prior to government agencies shutting off access by German law. Most of it will see the light of day eventually, as reseachers publish their work, but in the mean time the rest of us just have to be patient -- as hard as that may be.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
loss records location ?
Mon Feb 17 20:54:07 2026
195.92.67.69

Hi
Many years ago I was after info on an luftwaffe loss in april 44, I was provided the info via source ????.
The original info was supposed to have originated from archives in the USA,where apparently most'44 losses can be researched.
Maybe a someone in the states may know more ? or be able to help as to a lead ?
Cheers
Jerry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrreas Brekken
The Holy Grail part 2 & 3
Tue Feb 18 08:04:36 2026
217.70.229.41

Hi, Jerry!

You have got to be careful when mentioning the Holy Grail in this forum....

For a lot of the Luftwaffe researchers, the loss listings from 1944 is a long lost treasure. This includes those interested in both the operational issues, as well as the production etc of aircraft.

A lot of the Luftwaffe losses can be researched, by 'secondary sources'. Not that they are secondary in the respect that they are still original German records, it is just that they are not the Generalquartiermeister reports.

For example, You would be able to find a loss for a given fighter unit in the RL 2 III/852 and 853 documents (of which I am sure You can find copies somewhere in the US, probably from the Von Rohden microfilms? All other units in documents on surrounding reference numbers.). In addition, You would be able to direct an inquiry to the WASt in Berlin, where they would have a detailed record if the loss involved injury or death to one or more crewmember.

Some war diarys have survived the war. If You were to look into the losses of for example JG 77, a lot of the units war diarys survive.

Some units even made their own printed war diarys, with photographs and tales of their actions.

Then there are higher commands. For example, You would find a reference to losses and aerial victories in a Gefechtsstab or Luftflotte daily report. These also survive to some extent.

The bottom line is YES! a lot of the losses of Luftwaffe aircraft and personnel can be researched, it is just frustrating that one cannot read about them in the neat Generalquartiermeister reports!!

Regards from Norway,
Andreas Brekken.

PS! If You or Your ??? person really have located the Holy Grail, well....

In my opinion, the most likely place to find it would be in Moscow.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
source ?
Tue Feb 18 19:53:07 2026
195.92.67.70

Hi
You maybe right,Russia could be a mine of info.
All I recall was in the late 70's / early 80's , The info given to me came from the states, in very similar form to Loss records.
Maybe they are mis-filed in a well known record centre
or in a non easily accessable source,
Something like the UK 'Oxford files' are supposed to be.
Cheers
Jerry

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Misfiling
Wed Feb 19 08:34:24 2026
217.70.229.41

Hi!

Yes, this is a (faint) possibility. According to sources, a reference work published not long after the war contain information about the lost period that probably could not have originated from other sources than a Generalquartiermeister 6. Abt report. One theory, although not possible for me to verify (and not thought out by me, even if I like to toy around with theories like this) is that the person who wrote this work used the files and never returned them, maybe he just forgot. As he has since passed on, the reference might still be a part of the estate, or even destroyed or given to another institution or library, as this happened before the return of records to Germany.


It's just a theory, but a nice one to think about when piecing the other sources together!

Regards,
Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
theories....
Thu Feb 20 17:08:41 2026
216.136.45.130

Remember the last scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the Ark disappears into a massive, non-classified warehouse? Probably where the records are.* There are such places where documents or films are totally mis-classified. I can speak from first-hand experience.

Of course, I like the theory I heard a few years ago that the RAF truck, part of a convoy carrying German records in 1945, crashed and burned. Ergo, 1944 zapped!

(*My favorite analogy for this situation!

Regards,
Richard)