Books detailing Luftwaffe claims

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Tom Semenza
To Michael Balss
Sat Apr 13 02:30:02 2002
205.188.200.48

I am certainly looking forward to your upcomming Luftwaffe Night Fighter Claims book. I would also like to find a copy of your Night Fighter Losses book. Do you, or anyone else who reads this, know where I might obtain a copy?

Thanks.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

M.Balss
NF Losses book
Mon Apr 15 07:00:57 2002
192.229.17.103

Thanks Tom,

part one (Personalverluste) is out of print - for myself, I also had only one copy left. Part 2 (Materialverluste), so I know you got a copy at the VDM Verlag in Zweibrücken/Germany.
Regards
Michael

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Semenza
Thanks Michael
Wed Apr 17 02:06:20 2002
152.163.194.214

Thanks for your response. With your forthcomming book on Luftwaffe Night claims, we can only hope that someone will see fit to reissue your ealier books as well.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

John Vasco
Bf 110 victory claims
Sat May 25 10:13:31 2002
195.92.194.13

Tom,

A quick response about claims. Two things: first of all, for the period I have mainly covered, the Battle of Britain period, claims were often heavily overstated. Check out ZG 26 against actual RAF losses, for example. When you examine them closely, then there appears to be no point going further because you will get nowehere for corroboration purposes. It worked both ways, as you know. For example, find the Bf 110 that Nicholson shot down for his VC. Peter Cornwell and I could not find it at the time and location on the day in question, and we spent an inordinate amout of time poring over the Bf 110 losses to make a match, but couldn't. Secondly, getting information out of German archives, as I tried to do many times in the 1980s, was almost impossible. It wasn't a case of not trying, but getting nowhere and having to move on, and ultimately go with what I had.

I realise your disappointment, because I was/am equally disappointed, but ultimately that is what authors (and readers) have to live with.

I hope this goes some way to explainging the present situation with regard to published 'claims'.

Best wishes,

John Vasco

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Semenza
Zerstörer Claims
Sun May 26 01:38:43 2002
205.188.200.136

John,

Your point about overclaiming is taken and understood but is not the issue here. As we all know, victory claims by all fighter organizations are subject to exageration by the very nature of aerial combat. Some were far more imaginative than others, particularly when the combats took place over the other sides territory. One need look no further than Fighter Command's claims during the "Non-stop Offensive" in 1941-42 compaired with actual Luftwaffe losses.

This is however beside the point. What I would like to see is the actual claims that were made and or credited at the time, such as Prien et al. are doing with the Jagdwaffe.
Certainly analyis of claims versus actual losses is a fascinating and worthwhile undertaking. But this does not mean everything else should be thrown out. It is history as well.

So I am still not sure if you are implying that this type of information is non existent, or that it still lies buried in some archive, yet to be unearthed.

Regards,

Tom

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andre Stewart
luftfan@hotmail.com
Comments on Zerstorer Victory Claims
Tue May 28 05:24:00 2002
203.126.72.130

Tom,

I have always had an interest in the history / operations of the Zerstorer units. Being a fighter unit, the victory claims would thus be an inportant part of their history. Like you, I too have been disappointed at the lack of victory claim information in publications on the ZG (nowhere near the detailed listings found in the Prien JG works).

However, through the Internet and contacts with several other researchers, I have also come to realize the immense difficulties in this area, not only in matching claims with losses, but also in unearthing the claims themselves from archival materials! So in this context I fully understand John's points.

Finally, if you compile what is available from published sources and the Internet, the list is really quite impressive, given the degree of difficulties.
The list includes:-
1) Selected claims from all units in 1940 - John's book
2) V/KG40 claims - from Chris Goss' book
3) Zerstorerstaffel/JG5 claims - from Eric Mombeek's book
4) I/ZG2 claims in Poland, 1939 - Prien book + Woods list
5) III/ZG26 and II/ZG76 claims 1939-40 - Woods list
6) III/ZG26 claims in the Medit - Woods list
7) ZG1,26 and 76 claims in RVT Apr-Sep 44 - Woods list

Of course this list does not include V(Z)/LG1, but who knows - someone might just be putting that together....

Drop me a note offline if you would like to know anything else.


andre

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Semenza
Thanks Andre
Wed May 29 21:43:29 2002
64.157.45.75

Andre,

Thanks for your response. I do have all the sources which you have sited. As you know there are still very large gaps, namely the 1940 period from May 10 on, as well as the Eastern Front and Reichsverteidigung. In the meantime, who knows what information may yet surface.

Regards,

Tom

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Tom Semenza
Balss' book on Luft. Nightfighter Claims
Fri Dec 13 22:07:06 2002
152.163.189.170

Back in April, Michael Balss posted a notice on this board concerning his forthcoming book on Luftwaffe nightfighter claims. At the time he expected it to be published in the Fall. That's the last thing I've heard about it. Can the author or any one else let us know the status of the book.

Tom

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anders Näslund
Balss book..
Sat Dec 14 08:18:55 2002
212.217.133.53

Hi,
check another forum (German Night Fighter War 1939-1945) for this...

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=169401;article=1204 :


"Rod Mackenzie
Balss Claims Book - UPDATE
Wed Dec 4 02:21:21 2002
210.86.54.85

Hi One & All,

Wildred from Helion & Co., publishers, has provided me with news "straight from the horses mouth".

It appears that Michael Balss has "vanished", according to the publisher, Simon Parry. No one has been able to contact him at all by any method for some time (hence the delay in publication).

However, both Simon Parry and John Foreman will endeavour to finish and go ahead with publishing the book in about April/May 2003.

If further details can be obtained from Helion & Co:

info@helion.co.uk

Cheers

RodM"


Regards
Anders

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Semenza
Thanks
Sat Dec 14 23:18:27 2002
152.163.189.235

Thanks, Anders. A rather bizarre story!

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

West
Book suggestion
Thu Jan 2 17:34:51 2003
64.7.166.157

Hi,

Why hasn't someone come out with the Bf 109 encyclopedia? With supplements, of course. I can't think of a more popular topic for a book or series of books. The volume on camouflage and markings alone would be worth it, but not the inevitable disagreements over colors.

Regards,
West

P.S.

A separate volume listing every part and fastener, including the weight of each, would be good too ;)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
The latest Prien series is probably about...
Thu Jan 2 20:41:19 2003
65.56.28.99

as close as one is ever going to get. Complete single-engined fighter losses and claims, while also including a potted combat history and photos covering camo and markings of each unit for a given timeframe of the war - minus the heavy tech detail. Sounds pretty much like what you are asking for. .

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Book Suggestion
Fri Jan 3 12:13:28 2003
212.104.129.220

You've identified a potential demand for such a book, had you thought about writing it yourself?

If you can come up with reasons why you wouldn't try such a project then you've probably answered your own question as to why no one's done it already.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

West
That book
Fri Jan 3 17:11:50 2003
64.7.166.112

My proposal was a bit tongue-in-cheek as it seems every detail of the Bf 109 is being ferreted out as I write this. My next proposal would be entitled: How to Build your own Bf 109. With a Disclaimer describing the danger of building a flying machine. Followed by the supplement: What Color to paint your Bf 109.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Don Caldwell
"Combat Kill" by H. Morgan and J. Seibel
Wed Jan 15 15:17:45 2003
204.136.184.34

Who'd like to offer an evaluation of this book, published in 1997 by Patrick Stephens Ltd (ISBN 1 85260 536 7)?

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tinku
For what it is worth...
Wed Jan 15 17:33:42 2003
53.122.34.116

I read the book last year, and this is all from memory, since it was a library book:

The book purportedly deals with the "controversy surrounding aerial kills". If you are expecting a thorough research of claims, claims validation through cross referencing of allied and axis records etc., you will be disappointed. There is no such detailed cross referencing as you did yourself in your superb JG 26 War Diaries (btw my absolute favorite work on a Luftwaffe unit!).

The book mainly presents a lot of the information disseminated in secondary literature, that we all have read about: Luftwaffe claims validation procedures, the point system for awarding the Ritterkreuz and other medals, general overviews of claims vs. admitted losses (on broad terms, dealing with campaigns and not going into detail of individual air combat encounters), etc. This is interspersed with pilot's descriptions of air combat and victories.

It is not very scientific or scholarly. At first I was disappointed, since from the subtitle I expected that it would focus on analysis of primary data in order to shed more light into the obscure field of claiming and overclaiming. However I remember that despite my initial impression I finally enjoyed it quite a bit. It is "light reading", but well written "light reading", and quite entertaining.

So I guess it depends on what you are looking for. I am pretty sure though that the target audience is not Luftwaffe-History heavyweights like you.

Tinku

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
Exactly the analysis I needed - thx (n/t)
Wed Jan 15 22:04:51 2003
204.136.184.34

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dean Wick
I/ZG-76 Claims in Poland
Tue Feb 4 20:04:51 2003
216.209.173.181

Greetings: This may be old news to some of you,however, A few weeks ago I came across a poor Quality photo in an old Squadron/Signals book of a "Victory Board" for I/ZG-76.This board details the first 50 claims of this unit, including 20 in Poland( I believe they had about 30 claims, but a number were unconfirmed)Using a large lighted magnifying glass,I have been able to make out about 90% of the print. It includes pilot/Bordfunker,Date,Time,Location and A/C type.I would be happy to post what I have if anyone is interested.In relation to this, I have 2 short Questions. 1) Was there a Hptm. PACE or PAPE serving with this unit in Poland? 2) In a 1992 magazine article in "Fly past" magazine written by Chris Goss,there is mention of an Oblt. Hans Kettling of I/ZG-76 having made a Vic. claim in Poland. This doesn't show up on the above mentioned Board. Did he serve with another unit at that time, or was his claim unconfirmed? Thank you in advance for any Info. anyone can provide. Cheers Dean

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Don't know about anyone else, but...
Wed Feb 5 13:42:41 2003
64.223.199.2

I'd love to see it!! I actually went and found the book but can only read about half the names (Lent, Gollob, Fleischmann, etc.)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dean Wick
I/ZG-76 Claims
Wed Feb 5 19:57:05 2003
216.209.173.94

Hello again: John and Chris,thank you for your response. Hptm. Pape was the only pilot name I couldn't confirm.Judging by his rank, would he have been a Staffel Kapitan? Jim, here is what I've got so far.Still working on locations as they are badly faded in the photo. You have seen the photo so I'll just print the info as I have it and youwill be able to sort out where on the board it belongs. 1)Hptm.Reinecke/Obgf.June,2/9/39,10;15,PZL-24 2)Lt.Jager/Uffz.Feick2/9/39,10;26,PZL-24 3)Oblt.Nagel/uffz.Ladwaun?,3/9/39,17;10,PZL-24 4)Lt.Lent/Gfr.Kubitsch,3/9/39,17;10,PZL-24 5)Oblt.Uellenbeck/Uffz.Dombrowski,5/9/39,09;40,PZL-24 6)Lt.Fahlbusch/Gfr.Lenk,5/9/39,09;40,PZL-24 7)Hptm.Falck/Fw.Walz,5/9/39,09;40,PZL-24 8)Lt.Graeff/Gfr.Swick,5/9/39,09;40,FokkerIX? 9)Oblt.Gollob/Uffz.Meyer,5/9/39,10;33,PWS-56 10)Hptm.Pape/Uffz.Jacobi,5/9/39,10;50,PZL-24 11)Ofw.Herzog/ ? ,5/9/39,11;00, A/C ? 12)Ofw.Fleischmann/Uffz.Petzold,5/9/39,14;30, A/C ? 13Lt.Fahlbusch/Gfr.Lenk,6/9/39,08;00,PZL-24 14)Lt.Jager/Uffz.Feick,6/9/39,09;45,PZL-24 15)Ofw.Fleischmann/Uffz.Petzold,6/9/39,PZL-24 16)Oblt.Rademacher/Gfr.?,9/9/39,10;06,PZL-24 17)Lt.Bohmel/Gfr.?,9/9/39,10;10,PZL-24 18)Lt.Woltersdorf/Gfr.?,9/9/39,10;20,PZL-24 19)Hptm.Falck/Fw.Walz,11/9/39,10;05,FokkerIX ? 20)Hptm.Falck/Fw.Walz,11/9/39,10;10, A/C ? I have got the other 30 claims as well,and they seem to match up well with Chris Shores "Fledgling Eagles" so I'm guessing these are fairly accurate. In closing, does anyone Know the first names and ultimate fate of Hptm.Pape and Oblt. Nagel? Thanks Again. Dean

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Chris Goss
Re: I/ZG-76 Claims
Wed Feb 5 22:04:36 2003
80.40.89.33

Hptm Pape, christian name believed to be Horst was St Kap of 1/ZG 76 to 30 Nov 39. Nagel's christian name was Christoph. From below Ladwaun was Ernst Lochbaum, Swick was Zwickl, Herzog's BF was Fw Paul Wellenkoetter. Pape survived as far as I am aware as did Nagel

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dean Wick
I/ZG-76
Thu Feb 6 17:27:37 2003
216.208.52.122

Chris: Thanks once again for your reply to my Questions and for the corrections and additions. Cheers! Dean