Books on the air war over Germany

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Bob Rinder
Book Alert
Fri Dec 21 06:22:21 2001


Happened by the local book emporium (Hastings)and ran across a new Jane's book entitled "Battles With The Luftwaffe" (listed on Amazon.com as "Jane's Battles With the Luftwaffe") by (Theo) Boiten/(Martin W.) Bowman.

Seldom get surprised when it comes to books, but this one is quite amazing from a photographic standpoint. Numerous beautifully reproduced pictures of late war Jagdwaffe aircraft and activities, many of which do not seem to have been previously published, and certainly not as effectively as portrayed in this book. Same would seem to apply to the 8th AF images that make up the rest of the book.There are also numerous first person accounts to go along with the descriptions of the 1943-45 airwar over Germany. Anyone familiar with Theo Boiten's previous works will be pleased with this one.

Seek this one out for a look if you can. There are some pictures in there of 109's, 190's, and 410's that will really surprise you.

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 24 January 2002).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
Book Alert
Fri Dec 21 14:27:19 2001


Dear Bob,

The usual question: What's in there, if anything, on the advanced types such as the Me 262?

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bob Rinder
Book Report
Fri Dec 21 15:24:15 2001


Merry Christmas Richard !

This book is a series of first person accounts of the air war over Germany by the "working folks" who did the flying and fighting. With a couple of exceptions, well written and insightful captions to photographs which are directly related to the people and the eye witness accounts presented, and a format reminiscent of the recent JaPo book on the air war over the Czech territories.

Good information/extraordinary photographs on some of the less documented aspects of the contest like ME 410 daylight ops, 16 year old teenagers manning FLAK guns, and the final days of the Jagdwaffe as told by the survivors.

As for the ME 262, there is one nicely written personal account by "Kondens" Mûller, a Lt. with III/JG 7, but nothing new from a technical or photographic persepctive.

This is a good read, and a gem for anyone who likes both LW aircraft and surprises.

Regards
Bob

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
Re. Book
Fri Dec 21 15:35:10 2001


Dear Bob,

And a Merry Christmas to you, too. Thank you for your always insightful comments.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

David C Isby
FIGHTING THE BOMBERS
Tue Apr 23 17:14:49 2002
157.185.86.235

Coming out within the next year from Greenhill Press in London is FIGHTING THE BOMBERS. This is a follow-on to THE LUFTWAFFE FIGHTER FORCE: THE VIEW FROM THE COCKPIT. It concentrates on (1) the history of the defense of the Reich (narratives from Kammhuber, von Rohden, Weisse, "Beppo" Schmid) and (2) stuff that would not fit in the first book, including stuff on radar, fighter direction, night fighters (including Schnaufer and other aces and fighter controllers).

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

David Pausey
can anyone give me a review of this German book
Tue May 7 15:49:43 2002
195.92.67.66

Vom Feindflug nicht zurückgekehrt

Hi everybody
Thinking of buying this book,can you tell me a bit more about it.

(Failed to return from a mission)
Authors: Frank Güth / Axel Paul / Horst Schuh (Hrsg.)

The fates of Luftwaffe and Allied aircrew that went down in the Eifel, Rhein and Mosel area during 1939-1945.

Approx. 150 pages and 200 photographs, drawings and prints. Price: DM 58 / € 29,70

ISBN 3-933 608-33-3
Regards
David

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Volker Krappen
Re: can anyone give me a review of this German book
Tue May 7 19:10:36 2002
80.142.165.187

Hi David,

I'm a member of the working group Luftkriegsgeschichte
Kreis Euskirchen, which published this book. Axel and
Paul are friends of mine. It is very good ( my opinion ),
but a english version will follow. Perhaps you should
wait for this.

But if you want more informations, contact Frank Güth
direct: gustav.uebel@t-online.de

Regards

Volker Krappen
Wegberg
Germany

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

David
Thank you Volker
Tue May 7 20:25:14 2002
195.92.67.72

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Goran
Schweinfurt raids claims&losses
Thu May 9 23:02:35 2002
213.250.9.52

I have a few questions about Schweinfurt raids on 17.8.43 and 14.10.43.

1. How many US aircrafts were lost besides 60 bombers that were shot down each time(fighter losses and bombers damaged beyond repair)?

2. How many aircrafts were claimed by Luftwaffe (shot down, Herausabschuss, e.V.)? How many were claimed by jagdwaffe and how many by zerstorers, nightfighters and other units?

3. How many aircraft were claimed by USAAF and how many German aircrafts were actually lost (including damaged aircrafts)?

Thank you

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Schweinfurt
Sun May 12 00:24:01 2002
212.159.1.5

Lokk for a copy of Martin Middlebrook's book "The Schweinfurt/Regensburg Raid"

It is very detailed and well worth reading.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Don Caldwell
Bowman & Boiten
Thu May 30 23:57:24 2002
216.176.24.252

Does anyone out there have these two books by these authors: "Jane's Battles with the Luftwaffe" (HarperCollins, ~2000) and "Raiders of the Reich" (Motorbooks, 1997)? Are they the same book? If not, is there any duplication? If so, how much? (As you can guess, I've got one, and am considering whether I need the other.)

Horrido!

Don Caldwell

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Boiten Books
Fri May 31 00:47:31 2002
63.150.97.2

Dan, I have the "Battles With the Luftwaffe" have browsed "Raiders of the Reich". They are different. "Battles With the Luftwaffe" is a large format, heavily illustrated anecdotal history of the GAF against the daylight bombing campaign (including a few RAF daytime raids in 44-45).

This book isn't as well done as Boiten's two books on the night air war, in my opinion.

There are fascinating bits of information about Me 410 use, including one photo of two P-51s taken by the Bordfunker after the 51's overshot the 410.

There's not much new here, mostly a restatement of things seen elsewhere. The photos are nicely done and many are new to my eyes.

I do remember one snippet of information given in the book regarding flak. It seems as if LeMay was trying to get a handle on the probability of being hit by flak while flying straight and level, since at that time pilots were told to take evasive action. He pulled out an old artillery textbook and calculated that if a B-17 was sitting in a field, fixed artillery would require several hundred rounds to have a reasonable chance of hitting the bomber. He instructed his pilots to fly straight and level though flak.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Re: Boiten Books
Fri May 31 03:38:18 2002
192.237.29.254

Don : I have both books. Agree with Dick overall." Battles with the Luftwaffe does include lots of Photo's I'd never seen before, and some interesting side bars from interviews with Luftwaffe Vets, which are not evident in Raiders of the Reich. Cheers Dean

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
Thanks - the interviews should make "Battles" useful (n/t)
Fri May 31 15:41:08 2002
216.176.24.252

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Book
Fri May 31 16:06:34 2002
63.150.97.2

Don (No typo this time!!!)
I looked at the book again last night - it's in my "unread" shelf. The GAF veterans used as sources are mostly those not well known, so they do provide interesting viewpoints. Otto Stammburger's reminiscences are threaded through a good part the book ( I believe he died a couple of years ago)There are also some interesting reminiscences from very young flak gunners.

Again, I doubt that you'll discover anything new, but I bought it after having seen it in a local bookstore primarily on the author's reputation.

The layout is a bit "artsy" for my taste..photos spread across two pages and black text superimposed over black and white photos.

[Richard T Eger]

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Rabe Anton
467th BG Interceptions
Fri Nov 8 11:26:15 2002
152.163.189.235

Nicholas,

To fully understand what you have asked and the answer(s),
you need to do some basic reading in German air defense against the Eighth AF. I suggest Jeffrey Ethell and Alfred Price, Target Berlin, or perhaps Martin Middlebrook's Schweinfurt-Regensburg Raid.

The above and other sources will show you why it is so difficult to know what GAF fighter units participated in any given interception on any given day. In brief, there were a LOT of GAF fighter units in Reichs air defense, and the Eighth AF attacked a LOT of different targets scattered over most of the European continent. And equally important, the Luftwaffe fought a "fire brigade" defense,
moving units from base to base with astonishing frequency.

Specifically to the story of the single German fighter that you tell, the only way to identify the unit depends on the "yellow serpent" that was observed. If truthfully and correctly observed as such, the serpent was the unit insignia of a Staffel within JG 3, exactly which one could have varied with the time period owing to reorganization and renumbering of the Geschwader's constituent Staffeln.

If you desire more certain and precise identification from readers of this site, you will have to provide exact mission dates to initiate any further research.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Possible 109 units involved
Sun Nov 10 00:04:36 2002
212.159.23.142

Werner Girbig's "Six Months to Oblivion" (Ian Allan, London, 1975) or rthe original German edition "Start im Morgengrauen" (Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1973 - and still available I think)

Has a couple two and a half pages on the 2 March 1945 actions.

I think he based his account on reported losses (so other units could in theory have been there but if they suffered no loss He may not have been able to deduce their presence). Against US bombers the Bf 109 units he mentions are III./JG 300 (two pilots lost) and IV./JG 301 (17 pilots killed or missing).

II., III. and IV./JG 27 also lost during the daybut in actions against RAF Tempests and Spitfires.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
467th BG x Jagdwaffe - 2 Mar 1945
Sun Nov 10 16:07:11 2002
152.163.189.235

Good work, Nick, Six Months to Oblivion didn't occur to me, and it should have. I, too, have the powerful impression that Werner worked almost exclusively from VLM, in which venue he was a pioneer.

Interesting that none of the units you mention are associated with a "serpent" emblem, although as I wrote earlier, there is always the very off chance that some individual pilot had applied the former emblem from JG 1 or JG 3 as his own. . . . I still find the "wheels and flaps down story" pretty bizarre!

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Bob Morris
Fw-190s mix and match?
Sun Nov 10 07:20:40 2002
198.111.63.123

PLease comment on the following possible scenerios for a painting of an actual 8th AF mission where there was no escort, 11 Jan., 1944.

An attack of 190s on a B-17 group by 10 German A/C from the same JG. Yes, Galland and others say this happened.

A ten plane attack, 8 from one JG and two from another, JG 26 and JG 2 for example.

A 10 plane attack, 8 day fighters and two Wild Sau (night fighters) sliped in to beef up the defense.

A 10 plane attack with 8 Fw 190s and 2 Bf 109s.

I have it on record from a B-17 lead pilot that he NEVER NEVER saw so many planes in a blue sky at once.

Thanks in advance for any sugggstions,
Bob

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nicky Nacky Noo
Mix and match
Wed Nov 13 21:09:03 2002
194.164.15.233

All of what you say could happen. I doubt if 'Wild Sau' fighters were used but Me-110 G-4 nightfighters were oftern used to finish off stragglers that had fallen out of formation due to previous attack\flack\mechanical difficulties.
Try getting the book 'The Shweinfurt-Regensburg Mission. American Raids On 17 August 1943' by Martin Middlebrook as this will probable answer your questions in detail and may give you other ideas.

Hope that helps

NNN

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bob Morris
Thanks, further decisions
Thu Nov 14 16:25:35 2002
198.111.63.142

Thanks for the book idea.
It's been suggested that it was very likely that mixed gruppes were in action in the beginning of 1944, specially on this date when there was no fighter escort and the GAF assumed the 8th was headed to Berlin.

Considering the eye witnesses reports, number of planes available, lack of escort, the mission took place before
"Big Week" and LW losses, I'm assuming that almost anything imaginable might have taken place after the first two waves of fighter attacks.
All ideas are welcome!
Bob

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nicky Nacky Noo
Mix And Match
Tue Nov 19 20:46:13 2002
194.164.15.82

I agree about "I'm assuming that almost anything imaginable might have taken place after the first two waves of fighter attacks." as it would appear from reading various books that once the first attack had hit the Gruppe tended to split up and individual fighters then took on the bomber formations.
I am unsure about raids on Berlin, I was under the impression that the 8th Airforce only started to attack Berlin once the long range fighter escort was more established. Thought that was Bomber Commands targets, could be wrong mind you.

Yours

NNN