Books on captured Axis aircraft - 2

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Bob Rinder
New Book
Sun Mar 17 08:51:30 2002
205.188.192.31

Short heads up concerning a new Russian book from Frontline entitle LUFTWAFFE LOSSES ON THE EASTERN FRONT 1941-1945.

Not fancy and only 50 or so pages, but loaded with extraordinary photos of abandoned and captured LW aircraft. For those of you who have sat around and wondered for the last 50 or so years what happened to the LW in Russia, this book opens the door just a little. The title is also a little misleading in that there is a small chapter on captured Japanese aircraft included, one of which is, coincidentally, an ME 108 in Japaneses markings !

I ordered this copy from Air Connection in Canada............

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
New Russian book on captured Axis airplanes
Mon Mar 18 03:58:49 2002
149.99.117.169

I already published a short review of this book here, on this forum, about 2-3 weeks ago.
Alternatively, I also posted the same review on my discussion forum: http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=181285&article=41

Dénes

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bob Rinder
New Russian book
Mon Mar 18 06:23:08 2002
152.163.197.196

Yes Denes. You are correct. It is the same book you reported on earlier and it does have 80 pages. I apologize for letting my enthusiasm get the better of me. Let it be known that you were indeed the first to "scoop" this new title. (:O)

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Horst Zoeller
Ju52 in Soviet Services
Wed May 1 20:51:38 2002
172.178.99.70

Does anyone have informations about those Junkers Ju52,
which were used by the Soviets after the end of WWII.
I am mostly interested in Werksnummern, tailsigns
and service dates.

Thank you,
Horst Zoeller

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
Ju 52s in Soviet Service
Thu May 2 20:17:46 2002
204.101.53.233

You should check out the Finnish 'Red Star' series of books, authored/co-authored by C.-F. Geust.

I have a photo taken on an ex-Luftwaffe airfield nearby Stalingrad, in early 1943, with a Ju 52 already sporting Soviet Red Stars.

Beside ex-Luftwaffe machines, the Soviets received a couple of Ju 52s from Rumania as well, part of war reparations.

Dénes

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

chevalier
Fw190D in russian service?
Mon Jun 17 18:36:47 2002
195.11.50.108

I once came across some statement about Langnasen Dora captured by the advancing red army and used in russian service. Maybe it's from a schiffer or squadron book. Can anyone offer more detailed facts or pics?

thanx a lot.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Olivier Lefebvre
I'm sure C-F Geust will tell you more than i still...
Mon Jun 17 18:41:16 2002
195.132.0.30

... here are some details.

In march 1945 the 2nd GIAP of 322IAD was located at Zarau near a former FW factory. A large number of 190D-9 were found on the factory grounds. The "Dora" however were not flown by the Soviet pilots since they found the La-7 to be a better aircraft (according to CO of 322nd IAD). The war booty a/c were used for gun-sighting and identification training on the ground by the pilots of the 322nd IAD, with the engineers turning the German fighters to different angles at various distances.

At least one Fighter regiment (or 2 ??) of the Air Force of the Baltic Fleet (VVS KBF) used captured D-9 during summer 1945 (until 1946 ?).

Source :
- Under the Red Star, C.F. Geust
- Red Stard 1 & 2, C.F. Geust

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Francesco
Re: Fw190D in russian service?
Mon Jun 17 21:36:25 2002
192.92.126.137

There are 3 photos in Military Aircraft n.12/2001 "Fw190D-Ta152".
HTH

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Phil Baker
Red Dora
Tue Jun 18 00:09:34 2002
195.93.34.171

'Great Aircraft of the World' Ed. L.Cacutt pp.282. (I know it's a coffee table book but I make no apologies):

There's an excellent colour illustration of an Fw.190D in Russian markings, described as captured at Marienenburg and flying with the Red Banner Baltic Fleet AF in the spring of 1945. It has the quite interesting addition of a ventrally located radio mast which 'presumably indicates the inclusion of Soviet radio equipment'.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Peter Kormos
Fw190D in russian service
Tue Jun 18 08:52:46 2002
195.228.79.130

http://pub73.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm84.showMessage?topicID=1 .topic

There are some photos of D-9s on this topic.

HTH,

Peter

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

chevalier
thanx for u all
Tue Jun 18 16:38:43 2002
195.11.50.108

overwhelming gratitute I found so many useful material and links.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Norbert
Really a 262 captured by the russians?
Thu Aug 1 09:41:01 2002
62.104.214.95

There is a posting in this board mentioned a russian 262. Some years ago i saw in a book a 262 with russian markings. Who has informations about this plane? As i remember it was with white camouflage and russian markings. But i thought it was given by the USAAF to the russians - or not?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Norbert Neuser
Russian 262...
Thu Aug 1 11:47:30 2002
172.152.120.146

From Norbert to Norbert:

in M. Jurleit's book about the 262 in action there is mentioned, that a "Stormbird" was captured by the Russians at Pisek, west of Prague. This a/c formerly belonged to III./KG(J)6.

That's what the caption (refering to the published picture) in this book states.

So at least one 262 seems to be seized by the Russians.

Hopefully this helps anyhow.

Greetings

Norbert

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Carl-Fredrik Geust
Soviet Me 262s
Thu Aug 1 18:59:21 2002
194.251.240.108

Several Me 262s were in fact captured and tested by the Soviets. The first Me 262 flight-tested was flown by the test-pilot A.G.Kochetkov who i.a. had bailed out from a Kingcobra which broke up over the Bell factory near the Niagara falls in spring 1944. The Me 262 flight took place in Aug 1945 - for full details see my books "Under the Red Star - German aircraft in USSR" (Airlife, UK), and Red Stars Vol.2 -German aircraft in USSR (Apali, Finland).

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Yx190
FW190A - quite slow fighter??
Mon Aug 12 03:47:20 2002
202.108.116.170

Hi, all
I get a data file contain some fighter's top speed in various altitude

( note, 0 altitude in meter, 517, speed in km)
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-4
0 517 1350 543 2660 535 4000 567 6000 611 7000 606 7500 600 8000 590
Yakovlev Yak-3
0 590 1000 618 2000 628 3100 655 4000 650 5000 640 6000 630
Yakovlev Yak-9P
0 590 1000 608 2000 627 3000 640 4000 650 5700 673
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.VB
610 537 1800 564 2440 561 3660 556 5490 546 7315 527
Lavochkin La-5FN
0 550 2000 593 3190 622 4000 619 4925 611 6220 639 7000 632 8000 613
Messerschmitt Bf 109F-1
0 515 2000 547 4000 576 6000 600 7000 589 8000 570
Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6
0 547 2000 590 3000 600 4000 611 6900 621
1220 470 3660 515 6100 562 6645 573 8535 552 10360 510 11580 425
Supermarine Spitfire Mk.IX
1220 525 2440 553 3660 584 4875 616 6100 608 8535 658 9755 636 10975 607
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.IX
610 579 1220 586 1830 586 3050 595 4205 626 6100 624 9150 611
Supermarine Spitfire HF Mk.IX
1830 568 3660 608 4450 624 5490 624 7740 652 9145 642
Supermarine Spitfire F Mk.XIV
0 584 1220 619 1525 629 2440 626 3660 624 4875 652 6100 681 7740 718 9145 713 10360 702 11890 677
North American P-51B-5 Mustang
3050 636 6100 661 7620 682 9145 697

I always regard FW190 as a very fast fighter low and medium altitude before,
But now, according this table, puzzle me greatly, FW190A-4 is quite slow below 6000m, far below its maximum speed. A few days before, I also got a soviet's report which coincide with these data. It claim that La-5FN is 15-25km faster than FW190A-4 below 4000m even with canopy open. As for La-7, its engine only about 200hp more than FW190A's, but can reach 618km(385 miles) in sea level. 100km faster. This is quite incredible.

My question is ,
1) Are these data correct?
2) Is there any improvement in later version of FW190A ? How fast it is?

Any information will be appreciated.

[Richard T Eger]

Bryan Bury
Re: FW190A - quite slow fighter??
Mon Aug 12 20:27:56 2002
209.163.137.40

Make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

For one thing you are comparing a 1942 fighter (Two or four cannon A-4, Bomb racks? Time on engine? General condition? Was it crashed? conditio of propeller? What fuel was used?) with mostly 1943 and later aircraft except for the 109F-1.

How is the 190A-4 you are refering configured, power settings and condition to obtain the speeds you are refering too? What are the specifics for all the other aircraft? Were they taken from frontline service? Taken right off the production line or "prepared" for the testing?

You see, there are many questions and variables, the most important being the testing agency and and condition/ type of aircraft you are refering to and the sources of data when comparing one type against another.

Don't be too quick to draw absolute conclusions from single source testing without doing a great deal of your own research. Then you can make a better judgment of what was capable of doing what and when.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Fw 190A - Quite Slow Fighter?
Mon Aug 12 21:07:57 2002
132.60.7.2

Beautifully expressed answer, Brian!

Specifically concerning the Fw 190A, what you have offered is confirmed by Eric Brown (in Wings of the Luftwaffe) when writing about the Fw 190A-3 of Armin Faber, accidentally bequeathed to the Royal Air Force in 1942.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Yx190
Re: Re: FW190A - quite slow fighter??
Wed Aug 14 03:03:03 2002
202.108.116.170

Hi, Bury

Thank you for your informaiton. You are right. Many thing could lead to different test result. As far as I know from RAF's comparison was cited from ( http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire9v190.htm )

July 1942, a Spitfire IX was flown in a comparative trial against a Focke-Wulf 190A which had fallen into British hands when its pilot landed by mistake at Pembrey RAF base at in Wales. The trial showed that there was a remarkable similarity in performance. The following are extracts from the official report.

SPITFIRE IX VERSUS FW 190A
The FW190 was compared with a fully operational Spitfire IX for speed and manoeuvrability at heights up to 25,000 feet [7620 metres].

At most heights the Spitfire IX is slightly superior in speed to the FW190 -
the approximate differences in speed are as follows:

At 2,000 ft [610 m] the FW 190 is 7-8 mph [11-13 km/hr] faster than the Spitfire
At 5,000 ft [1524 m] the FW 190 and the Spitfire are approximately the same
At 8,000 ft [2440 m] the Spitfire IX is 8 mph [13 km/hr] faster than the FW 190
At 15,000 ft [4573 m] the Spitfire IX is 5 mph [8 km/hr] faster than the FW 190
At 18,000 ft [5488 m] the FW 190 is 3 mph [5 km/hr] faster than the Spitfire IX
At 21,000 ft [6400 m] the FW 190 and the Spitfire are approximately the same
At 25,000 ft [7622 m] the Spitfire IX is 5-7 mph [8-11 km/hr] faster than the FW 190


But if you refer from my data file and may notice that Spitfire IX was not very fast in low and medium altitude either.

About the report of Soviet, I quoted from a magazine which did not show its bibliography so I'm sorry for no enough detailed information. It only refer that they tested a captured FW190A-4 from JG51 to La-5FN in summer of 1943. I presumed both figher was in normal configuration.


BRs


Yx190

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 15 September 2002).]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

CJE
Kommando Seydlitz
Thu Aug 29 11:29:06 2002
80.14.218.60

Any hint of what was this so-called "Kommando Seydlitz", a Germano-Russian unit flying Fw 190A-8s in the Riga area in April 1945?
The book "Under the Red Star" states that one of these a/c was shot down by Allied (Soviet?) fighters while being flown by a German pilot.
Is it a hoax or what?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Carl-Fredrik Geust
Seydlitz-pilots
Fri Aug 30 06:41:58 2002
194.251.240.105

In the brief paragraph in my book "Under the Red Star" (published by Airlife in 1993) referring to allegations of ex-POW German pilots who had been "turned around", and were reported to flying German aircraft in the Soviet AF in spring 1945 I wanted primarily report the spurious information presented in various sources. My main reference was the discussion of this topic in the German Flugzeug-journal 1986-1988 (no 1/1986 p. 40, 3/1986 p. 5, 4/1986 p. 5, 5/1986 p. 5, 2/1987 p. 8 and 2/1988 p.7). Although a document of Luftflotten 6 (dated 26 April 1945) reporting shooting down a FW 190 with a confusing insignia mix (red Balkenkreuz under the wing, red stars on the fuselage and black-white-red cockade on the tail) was presented, no conclusion was reached. As I have seen no further references to (or confirmation of) the existence of "Seydlitz-pilots" I would be most happy for any additional information,
Carl-Fredrik Geust

PS: "Seydlitz" refers to General der Artillerie Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach (C.O. of LI. Army Corps of the 6th Army of Paulus) who was taken POW at Stalingrad 31 Jun 1943, and later became Chairman of the pro-Soviet "anti-Faschist" Bund deutscher Offizieren set up among German POW officers in USSR.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

CJE
Thank you
Fri Aug 30 11:18:41 2002
193.253.184.168

No, I have no further information.
It was just to know if someone else had, since the Russian archives are now more easily available.
The back cover of the forthcoming issue of Aéro-Journal will feature a three-view colour drawing of the Fw 190A as described in your book.
What surprised me was to see German aircraft types used, because it was more commun for the Soviet to give their allies Soviet aircraft, particularly Yak-3s or 9s.
I wondered where these aircraft came from. Had they been captured or had a complete unit turned around?