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  #1  
Old 01-22-2001, 10:45 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Bf 109G, WNr. 200 xxx to 202 xxx. What subtype??
Tue Jan 2 12:02:37 2001


Hi, guys.

As a followup to the request of Brown Ryle earlier, I would like to know if my WNr overview from Prien/Rodeike is plain wrong with regards to these ones.

I have 200 000 - 200 800, 201 000 - 201 900, and 202 000 to 202 200 all as G-8 manufactured at WNF.

Are my references wrong? Or was this production batch a G-8/G-6 mix? Or where they G-8's reverted to fighter standard.... cameras removed...

Regards,

Andreas
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2001, 10:49 PM
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From TOH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Subtypes
Tue Jan 2 15:50:11 2001


Hi Andreas,

Jochen Priens Werknummern-blocks seems to be o.k., but within this blocks were many gaps and not every Werknummer was allocated to an a/c.

Looking at Luftwaffe loss-reports, blocks perhaps may run from
200.018 to 200.158
200.222 to 200.318
200.410 to 200.412
200.435 to 200.486
200.588 to 200.702
200.954 to 201.150
201.389 to 201.399
201.432 to 201.471
201.492 to 201.553
201.752 to 201.833
202.027 to 202.120

Remember, this is only guess-work, based on the first and last Werknummer of a block known to me. Actual blocks may have been larger and perhaps there are also some minor gaps within this blocks.

Werknummern-Blöcke 200.xxx to 202.xxx were allocated to Bf 109 G-8 recce of WNF manufacture. Most, if not all were of R5 subtype and some had MW-50 or GM-1 fitted. Reports show only a few G6 and G6/R2 subtypes and some of these may be errors. What I could find on G-6s is this:

G6 201396 2 NAG 14 07. Feb. 45
G6 201463 IV JG 5 08. Mai. 45
G6 201496 1 NAG 3 20. Mrz. 45
G6 201537 IV JG 5 08. Mai. 45
G6/R2 201752 2 NAG 13 14. Jan. 45
G6 201757 2 NAG 8 11. Feb. 45
G6 201785 IV JG 5 08. Mai. 45
G6 201790 2 NAG 14 12. Feb. 45
G6 201795 2 NAG 14 18. Jan. 45
G6 201799 2 NAG 2 05. Feb. 45
G6 201802 2 NAG 12 28. Jan. 45
G6 201827 2 NAG 14 18. Jan. 45
G6/R2 202042 1 NAG 15 17. Apr. 45
G6 202049 IV JG 5 08. Mai. 45
G6 202054 St NAG 14 20. Feb. 45
G6 202082 2 NAG 13 02. Feb. 45
G6/R2 202090 2 NAG 13 13. Dez. 44
G6 202105 1 NAG 2 19. Jan. 45
G6 205659 2 NAG 1 16. Feb. 45
G6 206054 JG 5 22. Aug. 44

Werknummern-Block 230.xxx, also from WNF, was a "true" G-6 Block mostly G-6/R2 manufactured after November 1944.

Due to the overwelming superiority of allied aircraft recce-missions regularily were flown in pairs: one "camera-plane" and one "gun-plane" to cover his fellow. "Gun-planes" had no cameras fitted. This perhaps is the reason why some G-8s were stripped off any special recce-equipment at unit level and looked very much like a G-6 fighter.

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 22 January 2001).]
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:38 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

David Prewett
109G-6 Werk Nr 28077
Sun Jan 28 08:51:16 2001


I recently located the above nr stamped on my G6 (recovered from Lake Swiblo)after finding this nr I have found the nr 77 on both left and right wing to fuselage cover
panels.
I an now convinced this is the missing Werk Nr. Any details on this nr would be greatly appreciated.
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  #4  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:39 PM
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From TOCH!:

John Beaman
WNr 28077
Sun Jan 28 18:13:05 2001


According to Jochen Prien and the loss data I have, there were no Bf 109s in the 28000 range. The records show nothing beyond 27185. What makes you think this is a
Werke Nummer and not a part number?
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  #5  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:41 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

David Prewett
Werk Nr 28077
Sun Jan 28 21:20:01 2001


Mark Shepard is going to contact Jochen Prien for his comments, the 77 stamped on the cover panels ( to identify which aircraft they came off ? ) indicates to me it is
probably the werk nr. It does not appear to be a part no.
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  #6  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:42 PM
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From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Werk Nr 28077
Mon Jan 29 01:10:18 2001


Doesn't fit any WNr. block that I've seen.
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  #7  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:43 PM
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From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
WNr. 28.077 = 410.077
Mon Jan 29 07:08:13 2001


Erla-Werke at Leipzig, one of the main manufacturers of
Bf 109s, had a special way to allocate Werknummern: First three digits for the "Kostenstelle" (don't ask me what this is in English), followed by two digits for the
"Los-Nummer"
(production block) and three digits for the aircraft itself.

So 311 26 001 was the first a/c of Los-Nummer 26. As the "Kostenstelle" at Erla allways was the same, the first three digits never were applied to the airframe and this a/c
always was called "Werknummer 26.001".

When RLM ordered the future usage of six-digit-Werknummern,
Erla did not change this practice up to the end of the war (there is a famous series of semi-finished Bf 109s - even in color- at Erla with Werknummern in the 32.xxx range
published). This Erla-Werknummer was punched into many
parts of the airframe and also was painted on the fuselage during assembly. But Erla had to follow the orders of the RLM and so the "Erla-Werknummern" were changed to
"RLM-Werknummern" prior to delivery to the Luftwaffe. In a document dated 23. August 1943 Erla explained, in what way
"Erla-Werknummern" were connected to "RLM-Werknummern"
and issued a "Schlüsselverzeichnis".

According to the Schlüsselverzeichnis RLM-Werknummern
410.001 to 410.100 were allocated to airframes with Erla-Werknummern 28.001 to 28.100 from production-block 28. So
your Bf 109 G-6 with Werknummer 28.077 is RLM-Werknummer 410.077.
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  #8  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:44 PM
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From TOCH!:

Norbert Neuser
Meaning of Kostenstelle
Mon Jan 29 11:22:55 2001


Hello Charles

Just a short translation as a remark:

Kostenstelle is translated in English as "Cost Center".

Kind regards

Norbert
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  #9  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:44 PM
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Kostenstelle could be "Account number"
Mon Jan 29 14:23:56 2001


Hi, all.

With regards to Charles Bavaroise' very interesting information regarding the Erla way, I would translate the "Kostenstelle" word into "account number".

As the Erla Werke got a new contract, they would probably open up a new account(not literally in a bank, but to control costs etc in their own system), where the cost of
materials and man hours used on this "project" or "order" would be accounted for.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Andreas Brekken
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  #10  
Old 03-01-2001, 11:46 PM
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From TOCH!:

Mark Sheppard
factory numbers/serials
Thu Feb 1 17:27:56 2001


This is no different from Hawkers during WWII. All of their Hurricanes were constructed with a 41H/xxxxx. 41H/ was the Hurricane and the five digit number the Hawker
construction number which was only for Hawkers own use. The aircraft were then issued with the serial by the MOD/RAF etc.

I believe the practice still continues today with British Aerospace (BAe) with the Hawk etc.

Seem common sense

Mark
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  #11  
Old 03-04-2001, 01:53 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
For mr. C. Bavaroise: Schlüsselverzeichnis Erla-Werke
Mon Jan 29 14:13:19 2001


Dear mr. Bavaroise,

I wondered if You would be so kind as to post a reference for this/these Schlüsselverzeichnis(se), if they for example are located at the BA-MA.

If not, it would be nice to be informed of where it is possible to aquire them.

Regards,

Andreas Brekken
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  #12  
Old 03-04-2001, 01:54 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Erla Werke Schlüsselverzeichnis
Wed Jan 31 15:12:42 2001


Dear mr. Bavaroise.

As You give no e-mail address, it is not possible to directly contact You from this board, and You will not be notified when messages are answered.

But I would ask You if You would please answer my message from January 29. for You especially, concerning the Erla Werke Schlüsselverzeichnis, and where these
documents might be obtained. As You have access to them it seems better to ask You directly than to start sending messages to Bundesarchiv etc.

If the source is not a public one, could You please let me know this, as my search would then be terminated.

Regards,

Andreas Brekken
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  #13  
Old 03-04-2001, 01:55 PM
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From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Schlüsselverzeichnis
Wed Jan 31 16:06:51 2001


Dear Mr. Brekken,

I beg your pardon, but I simply have not noticed your message from 29. January.

My information on Erla is not from a public source but from an individual who lived near Leipzig and who was able to collect fragmentary information from Erla's account
bureau (? - in German: Abrechnungsstelle). I guess, this documents were (and are) in private hands, as to my knowledge there are no files on Erla in Bundesarchiv. The
information is mostly on handwritten tables and the few xerox-copies do not have any stamps or copyright-marks from a public archive. For whatever reason this guy wants
to be anonymous and he only gave me permission to use the information for my own database and to help in individual cases. I think, you also met such persons during
your research many times.

So, to be honest to my source, I can't give you access to the whole files, but I am ever willing to help you in individual cases. Please feel free to contact me whenever you
want.

Carl
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  #14  
Old 03-04-2001, 01:58 PM
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Sources...
Thu Feb 1 08:03:18 2001


Hi, Charles.

Yes I have encountered this situation numerous times.

Thanks for the kind reply and offer to assist in given cases.

I do believe that one of my own sources must have had some kind of access to information from Erla also, as I have seen from his notes Werkenummer which makes no
sense when compared to the listings in Prien/Rodeike converted into apparently RLM Werkenummern in the series which You have described.

I will keep in touch.

Regards,

Andreas

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  #15  
Old 04-02-2001, 08:34 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Nick Beale
Bf 109G-14 Werk Nummern
Sat Feb 24 09:54:42 2001


Luftwaffe loss records say that 461118 of III./NJG 11 crashed at Bonn-Hangelar on 24 February 1945

The Allied Technical Intelligence report on the base lists the wreck of 463118

I'm guessing these are probably the same aircraft but don't know which Werk Nummer is the typo and which is correct. Does anyone have any more information on either
of these Nummern?
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2001, 08:35 PM
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From TOCH!:


David E. Brown
2 steps forward, 1 step back . . .
Sat Feb 24 13:58:43 2001

Good morning Nick,

As it turns out, you have an interesting question.

Regarding the two Werknummern you mention, 461118 and 463118, Prien and Rodeike indicate that G-14s were produced in both the 461000 - 462000 and 463000 -
463300 blocks. As such, both Werknummern are plausible for the subject aircraft. So far, so good.

Mermet (based on a summary at the end of his book) notes that G-6s and G-14s were produced interspersed within the 462000 - 464000 block. On the other hand, the list
infers that there were no Bf 109s produced in the 461000 - 462000 production block. Yet within the text he notes that the G-10/U4s were indeed within the 610000 - 613000
Werknummer series. An error of omission? However, Prien and Rodeike indicate that no G-10s were produced in this series, just G-14s. Mermet has to be in error here as
various lost listings reveal G-14 aircraft from the 461000-series.

Therefore, the two Wrerknummern proposed for this aircraft are valid. Perhaps someone with access to lost listings might be able to see if one of these was lost prior to the
discovery of the Bonn aircraft (are you out there Sheflin, Beaman et al?). Alternatively, a photo would certainly help. Another lead to follow would be if it could be determined
(via photo or document) that the aircraft had characteristics of mounting the DB 606 AS engine, it would confirm it as being WNr.461118. (Prien and Rodeike note that the
AS was sprinkled trough the 461000 - 462000 block but not 463000 - 463300). Thus, not having this motor would place it in the 463000 - 463300 block and hence it would
be WNr.463118.

Sorry I can't help you move forward, but at least you know where you stand. Gotta coin?!

Cheers,

David
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  #17  
Old 04-02-2001, 08:38 PM
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From TOCH!:

R.M.
Speaking of JC Mermet
Sat Feb 24 17:57:29 2001


I know this was brought up weeks ago, but has anyone heard from Jean Claude recently ? The English translation of his book was supposed to have been available in
January. Not a problem to wait. Just wondered in anyone might be able to update us on the status of the project and when the book might actually arrive.

Thanks
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2001, 08:39 PM
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From TOCH!:

John Beaman
mysterious number
Sat Feb 24 16:39:23 2001


Hi Nick:

As you say, Luftwaffe records list 461118 as an 85% loss on Feb 24, 1945. As such, I wonder how much was left for A.T.I. to discover? What does the report say?

I do not have a listing for 463118, but many all around that number, all G-14 a/c, not G-14/AS.
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  #19  
Old 04-02-2001, 08:40 PM
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From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
WNr. 461.118 or 463.118
Sun Feb 25 19:53:17 2001


Bf 109s in the 460.xxx to 465.xxx range were G-14s built at Erla-Leipzig. None of this a/c was of a G-6 or G-10 subtype. Most were delivered as "normal" G-14s with DB
605 AM engines, only 148 a/c were G-14 AS with DB 605 AS engines (but some of the G-14s were shiped to Antwerpen after delivery and refited with AS-engines).

In the 461.xxx range Werknummern were only allocated to 461.160 - 461.200 (G-14AS), 461.318 to 461.378 (G-14AS) and 461.379 - 461.514 (G-14). For 463.xxx the
blocks are 463.000 - 463.006 and 463.110 - 463.248 (all G-14s).

So, the Werknummer for the aircraft found at Wunstorf most probably is 463.118.

BTW, there is a foto with wrecks at Wunstorf in Monogram Close Up # 7, page 4, with a Bf 109 "white 2" which probably is WNr. 463.118 and "yellow 8" which might be a
G-10 of III/NJG 11, Werknummer 150.840.
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  #20  
Old 04-05-2001, 01:39 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Wim Govaerts
Erlawerke Bf 109 E crash in Belgium
Sat Mar 3 17:09:35 2001


On the 24th March 1943, a BF 109E (Werkn 1987) of the Frontreparatur Werk 7 Erla stationed at Deurne crashed at Boechout/Belgium. The pilot was Ofw Reinhardt
Jochmann who was able to bale out, but he reached the ground wounded.This aircraft was shot down at 1215 hours by Ofw Detlev Lüth of JG 1. Any info sought on both the
pilots and their aircraft.
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