The Luftwaffe Archives & Records Reference Group  

Go Back   The Luftwaffe Archives & Records Reference Group > NAMED AREAS OF INTEREST > Aircraft Designation Systems

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-21-2001, 07:38 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default Stammkennzeichen System

From 12 O'clock High!:

Dénes Bernad
Centralised Stammkennzeichen list?
Thu Dec 21 20:40:10 2000

It seems that several people are working hard to reconstruct - at least partially - the list of Stammkennzeichen (four-letter radio codes) attributed to German military aircraft.
I am wondering if there was some sort of centralised 'master' list with these blocks (at one of the RLM's departments maybe?) and if yes, did this 'master' list survive the
war? If the list would be (re)discovered, it would solve a giant problem aviation historians (and modelers, too) face day by day. I, too, would sleep better having the Stkz.
problem of the Henschel Hs 129s finally put to bed...

Dénes
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-21-2001, 07:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
Stkz list
Sun Dec 24 22:06:12 2000


In order to prevent duplications, there had to be a master list somewhere in the RLM. I certainly don't think it has yet been found, although there are several in Germany
that seem to have a lot more data than I have been able to unearth. I have seen Stkz lists for specific types (Fw 190, Do 217)in the ADI(k)captured documents accessions
and they all seemed to assigned to the AI branch concerned with Luftwaffe production. Do these lists or microfilms still exist some where in the GB documents
collections? These were not the master list, but still would be very interesting. Incidentally, amongst the data gathered by the Wright Field intelligence at Messerschmitt
was a detailed list of Bf 109 production quantities by sub-type. I am trying to find out if it still exists as it would answer several questions that keep coming up.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-2001, 01:17 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Clint Muse
RWD-13 with Stammkenneichen
Mon Apr 30 22:11:18 2001


Hello All

I've recently obtained a copy of Hikoki's White Eagles.Included in this book is a photo of an RWD-13 with the Stammkennzeichen RF+CX.This is described as being used as a hack by the Fieseler company.My question is,why would a company owned aircraft carry Stammkennzeichen rather than a civilian D- code?

TIA

Clint
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-2001, 01:19 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Tom Willis
RWD 13
Tue May 1 00:02:46 2001


Hi

Nice photo isn't it! I always wondered what became of the RWD 13s that did not escape to Rumania; I can't get access to my files at the present but there were at least two other countries that RWD 13s managed to escaped from the clutches of the German forces.

No real mystery why the RWD 13 carried Stkz; all booty aircraft were Reich property and were handled via the Chef AW where they would have been assigned Stkz and passed on to
their respective units, be it 1st or 2nd line status.

The Stkz would therefore stay with the aircraft until it was either wrecked or scrapped. There is no date with the photo so perhaps Fieseler acquired the RWD 13 after it had been assigned to the Luftwaffe.

As the RWD already had identification registration (Stkz) there would have been little point in giving it civilian status. It's duties would have been to ferry Lw personnel on Lw business.

It would be interesting to find any other gems of Polish ancestry that may come to light sometime in the near future.

Kind regards

Tom Willis
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-09-2002, 07:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Aurélien Guénec
Factory codes
Thu Jun 13 11:42:32 2002
130.66.101.24

Hi,

Does anybody know where I could find information about the codes painted on the Luftwaffe aircraft when they just came out of the factory? Were there a code per factory?
Thanks for any help,
Aurélien
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-09-2002, 07:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Stammkennzeichen
Thu Jun 13 16:04:49 2002
198.26.120.13

Aurélien,

It is indeed odd that there is relatively little information in Luftwaffe literature about the so-called Stammkennzeichen (now also being called the Überführungs-kennzeichen). One cannot help but suspect this is because these non-combat markings are widely regarded as irrelevant, inglorious, or a distraction from the only REAL business of the true enthusiast, which is (a) the "right" colors and (b) who shot down who, and how many of them. Anyway, best treatment so far (and it is both highly incomplete and just a little misleading) can be found in Michael Ullmann's new book Luftwaffe Colours, 1939-1945 (Hikoki, 2002) at p. 149ff.

RA
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-09-2002, 07:42 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Aurélien Guénec
Stammkennzeichnen DH+HS
Thu Jun 13 20:17:37 2002
195.93.50.157

Thanks a lot for your answer. I am looking for one particular code written on an Arado 196 built in St Nazaire. This is DH+HS. Could DH be the SNCAO factory code (a french factory which built 13 Ar196 in 1942 and 10 Ar196 in 1943)?
Thaks a lot again
Aurélien
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-09-2002, 07:42 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Stammkennzeichen D H + H S
Thu Jun 13 21:24:25 2002
198.26.120.13

Aurélien,

I have searched my records (highly incomplete) and have not found entries for an Ar 196 D H + H S, or for any Ar 196 in the D H + H - series.

The question, you see, is not whether D H + was "the" factory code for SNCAO but whether it was one code of perhaps several assigned to the SNCAO-built Arados. Since you state 13 airplanes of the type were built in 1942 and 10 in 1943, it is quite likely that two or more SKZ series were utilized.

So far as I know, Sven Carlsen of Hamburg, Germany, has the best collection of SKZ information on the planet. You might try sending Sven a letter (address in his and Michael Meyer's books) and putting the question to him. When and if you get the information, please be so kind as to post it on this site.

RA
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-09-2002, 07:43 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Aurélien Guénec
Thanks a lot! I'll do that (n/t)
Fri Jun 14 08:18:05 2002
130.66.101.29
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-15-2003, 12:44 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

For an interesting discussion of late war Stammkennzeichen, the reader is referred to the "Aircraft Designation Systems" forum, "Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen" topic.

Regards,
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-02-2003, 11:45 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Wybe Buising
request for add. info on 3 Stammkennz.
Thu Aug 21 22:16:45 2003
62.59.8.115

Dear fellow researcher,

l came across the following skz in some reports and it appears that these planes were users of the airfield l am researching (Hilversum). Can anyone supply me with some more details on these plans. If the info is correct there belonged to Aufkl.St. 4(H)/ 23

Bf108 SE+YM
He 126 6K+FM
Fi 156 6K+OM

Thanks for any help + reg. from Holland

Wybe
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-02-2003, 11:45 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
SKZ and TKZ
Fri Aug 22 03:30:35 2003
205.188.208.76

Wybe,

Only the first of the three aircraft codes you have listed is a Stammkennzeichen. The last two are Truppenkennzeichen, or unit codes.

RA
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-21-2004, 11:58 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Kari Lumppio
klumppio@frame.hut.fi
Erla Bf 109 F-4 Trop Stkz blocks - new ones?
Wed May 12, 2004 09:31
130.233.83.21

Salut!

I am supposed to work on something completely different, but this one surfaced almost out of blue.

I have a set of Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen of planes obviously travelling towards JG5 in Northern Finland/Norway. These are taken from Finnish Air Observation logs.

I also have a separate list of known Werke Nummern of JG 5 Bf 109 F-4 Trop (Erla built) planes. From the very same period than the Stkz data above.

There are couple of known F-4 Trop Stkz/WNr blocks which I think are clear cases (?):
CD+LA to CD+LZ (10107-10132)
CI+MA to CI+MZ (10161-10186)

But there also exist matching "visual" patterns for my Stkz/Wnr data. Therefore I would like to ask if someone can deny or confirm (sources?) following Stammkennzeichen block guesses:

VE+TA to VE+TZ (10081-10106) - 3 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
CL+GA to CL+GZ (10135-10160) - 11 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
SB+WA to SB+WZ (10187-10212) - 2 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
NJ+UA to NJ+UZ (10241-10266) - 3 apparent Stkz/WNr matches

I admit three of the blocks are weak cases because of few data points. But what is the probablity that the Stkz/WNr patterns (=place in the Stkz block) match even if there is only two or three points?

There would also be at least two out-of-sequene Stkz if my guess is right: WNr 10133 and 10134. Anything known about these planes?

Waiting eagerly for your responses.

Thanks in advance,
Kari
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-21-2004, 12:01 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
10133 and 10134
Thu May 13, 2004 09:09
83.109.139.71

Hi, Kari!

WNr 10133 is one of ours... lost when Uffz. Wilhelm Kuchlingg (written as in the original Namentliche Verlustemeldung) from 6./JG 5 was reported as MIA on 29.06.1942. He and presumably his Rottenflieger Feldw. Emil Stratmann was last seen as 6. Staffel engaged about 11 Russian fighters near Murmaschi. Kuchlingg's aircraft was at the time coded 'Gelbe 15', while Stratmann was flying 'Gelbe 4', WNr 10180 'CI+MT'. (all according to my notes).

Wnr 10134 was according to my notes lost by 8./JG 53 on 01.06.1942, near El Adem.

Regards,
Andreas
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-21-2004, 12:02 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Bf 109F-4 Stammkennzeichen
Sat May 15, 2004 19:10
205.188.116.80

Hallo Kari!

I am sorry to be delayed in responding to you concerning your question of Bf 109F-4 Stammkennzeichen. Very busy here.

Sadly, I have very few SKZ data for the Werknummer ranges you are dealing with. Your question helps me understand why: I have few primary materials from the northern war.

From 12-14 years of study and collection of GAF SKZ, I can say that Messerschmitt Bf 109F blocks can be reconstructed from as few as two SKZ. For example, if you have Q Z + A D = 11 251 and Q Z + A J = 11 257, then all of the numbers betwee 11 251 and 11 257 and all the SKZ between "D" and "J" run sequently. BUT——you CANNOT reliably say what lies after Q Z + A J!!! The next block could begin with "A," or it could be a "partial block" beginning with any letter!!!

The "normal" SKZ block was "A" to "Z" (26 numbers). HOWEVER, it is very common to find "short," "terminated," or partial blocks of less than 26 examples. No matter. Within the blocks, the numbers and letters still run regularly.

Sadly, I do not have the data you have for airplanes traveling in Finland. I cannot, therefore, be sure, but I am pretty sure that Bf 109Fs 10 133 and 10 134 are simply "fillers," or a short block of two. These were often thrown in for security purposes, it seems. I have 10 130 as C D + L X. 10 131 and 10 132 MIGHT then be C D + L Y and C D + L Z. These facts would fit your data.

I hesitate to ask, for I know you have worked hard to obtain the documents, but I wonder if it would be possible to obtain copies of the original documents bearing SKZ? For more than 10 years, I have been working very hard to collect and arrange WNRs. and SKZs and would like very much to fill in the areas represented by "your" Bf 109Fs.

I already have the transit aircraft log book for Malmi, courtesy Carl-F. Guest.

I have no special interest in the northern air war or JG 5 and would use any documents only to improve my SKZ research.

Anyway, I hope that the above comments help you. If I had the data you have, I could give a MUCH better answer!

Very best regards,

James H. Kitchens, III, Ph.D.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-21-2004, 12:03 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,719
Default

From TOCH!:

From TOCH!:

Rabe/James
F-4 Skz
Mon May 17, 2004 14:27
62.241.191.61

Rabe/James

The advantage we have in this instance is a list of Skz. and a known list of damage losses.

Knowing what went up through Finland recorded by Skz. and then the W.Nr. recorded in the lost list is a great help.

It seems 95% tie in so it seems to make some well defined blocks.

regards

Mark
Reply With Quote
Reply

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Hybrid Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode
Threaded Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.