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  #1  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:25 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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Default Books on He 219/He 419/Hü 211 - 3

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mike Powlen
He 219 paint scheme question !
Tue Jan 14 05:14:50 2003
152.163.189.170

Hi all, Just picked up the He 219 book by Ronald Remp which is very good. I do have a question reguarding a couple of pics on pg 92 which are "new" to me and show a very interesting He 219 A-2 (WN 290068)with a "Wellenmuster" type scheme on top and the RLM 22 matt black on the bottom surfaces.
First...anyone have any more info on this particular a/c
and..would any of you like haveing a shot at trying to guess what the top colors used were ?
I'm thinking (ok, guessing)RLM 75 base with 76 squiggle but would like to hear it from some of you pros out there.
Thanks for any help on this.
Mike
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  #2  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:26 PM
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From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
dick.powers@hok.com
219 Camo
Tue Jan 14 15:49:39 2003
63.150.97.2

I recently had an opportunity to visit and talk to one of the NASM restorers who is working on their 219. He showed me several places on the fuselage which, he believes, are the original factory-applied camouflage.

These areas are beneath the wing root, where it attaches to the fulelage and where the horizontal stabilizer attaches to the fuselage. These areas are black with a grey-green "squiggle". His contention seems to be supported by the fact that the original brackets for holding the stabilizer to the fuselage are riveted over the finish. HE believes that the fuelage might have been painted, separately from the wings ans tail, before the final airctaft was assembled.

I'd like to hear more comments.
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  #3  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:27 PM
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From TOCH!:

David E. Brown
He 219 camouflage schemes
Tue Jan 14 18:39:48 2003
142.176.155.197

Mike,

I believe you are correct in your interpretation of this aircraft's camouflage scheme. This combination with a black underside is a rather rare one but not surprising given the variablity one sees in the He 219's camouflage schemes.

Os-Liste 219 of early 1944 shows the official RLM scheme as overall 76 with an uppersurface mottle of 75. Some of the first aircraft had black as a full or partial underside colour, but these aircraft were few in number (there were only about 275 aircraft completed).

As the war progressed, a reversal of sorts is seen in photos of He 219's, Ju 88 G's and Bf 110 G's where the uppersurface colour is overall 75 with varying patterns of 76. Colour 76 was retained as the underside colour. Colour 75 was used throughout the war on a wide variety of both day and night fighters and seemed to vary little in its colour appearance. The same cannot be said for colour 76, which changed over this period having a wide variability in shades, though that applied to nightfighters had a near white appearance. This variability was likely due to limited availability of raw materials used to create this colour, use of raw material substitutions, or a combination of the two. Indeed, the names (official and unofficial) used to describe the colour also reflect this change: "Lichtblau", "Graublau", "Weissblau".

The use of Grau 75 as a base coat made sense. It appears to have been widely available and of good quality, suggesting no shortages of the raw materials used for its (pigment) manufacture. Thus, lesser quantities of 76 could be applied in lighter coats over the 75 would allow the bluish-grey 75 to bleed through the 76 and impart the bluish shade to the 76. Nonetheless, by mid-1944 ground concealment was vital as Allied air forces began to seek out the Luftwaffe on the ground. To counteract the very bright appearance of these aircraft, another scheme had to evolve.

While there is no known official documentation, there are plenty of photos and indeed some colour ones that support the use of Braunviolett 81 and Hellgrün 82 as uppersurface colours on nightfighter aircraft. Photos suggest that these colours were both factory- and field-applied, particularly to those aircraft that had large vertical surfaces and were lightly coloured (76) in order to provide some measure of concealment on the ground, by far the greatest threat near the war's end. Nightfighters were particularly suited for this scheme though colour photos of the tails of He 177s indicate their use here as well (see photos in Airfoil 3). Photos also reveal these colours commonly applied to Ju 88Gs and Bf 110Gs (especially from NJG 101 - field-applied), the usual suspects.

The He 219A-7 WNr.190176 is an excellent example of this late scheme. It and another machine also found at Lechfeld (WNr.190179) have a scheme that I have interpreted as overall 76 with an irregular wavy uppersurface pattern of 82 Hellgün and the odd bit of 81 Braunviolett. 76 was randomly applied in a smaller wellenmuster pattern on top of this for 190179. The tails appear almost overall 82 and the last three digits of the Werknummer appeared as 20cm high black numbers under the all black Hakenkreuz. Interestingly, the tails have a slightly different scheme, and the Werknummer and Hakenkreuz indicate that they were painted last, indicating a factory-applied scheme. The best shot that illustrates this possible scheme in on the last page of Held and Nauroth's book on the German nightfighters (I believe that it has been published elsewhere).

Hope this helps,

David
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  #4  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:27 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Black bottomed night fighters
Wed Jan 15 02:04:57 2003
216.191.233.213

The aircraft assigned to low-level night attacks on Allied road convoys and other ground targets of opportunity had their bottom halves painted black, since the normal 76 made them glow like freshly minted coins when caught by searchlights.

During 1944 the German night fighters had the underside of their right (starboard) wings painted black (see p. 83) to act as an identifier for the German flak. But, I understand it was of limited value, perhaps because the informal motto of Flak units the world over is: If it flies, it dies.
George
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  #5  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:28 PM
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From TOCH!:

David E. Brown
Thanks
Wed Jan 15 02:24:17 2003
24.138.6.89

George,

Great post. I love that motto from the "universal flak fraternity".

Also, thans for the Christmas card - I was overwhelmed this past Holiday Season and thus apolgise for my greetings oversight.

Cheers,

Dave
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  #6  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:29 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
He 219 camouflage specs
Wed Jan 15 04:14:51 2003
216.191.233.238

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Dave. I hope you had a great Christmas and are looking forward to a fantastic 2003.

For what it's worth, in Teil 0 for the He 219 A-0 published in Jan 44, the colour specs are given as a base coat of RLM 76, with mottling on the top surfaces of RLM 75. But, of course, the aircraft pictured on p.92 isn't even close to that. So, I guess you can fill your boots on whatever seems most appropriate, with 76 on 75 being as good a choice as any, because those colours would be most available to whoever was painting Heinkel night fighters at that time.
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  #7  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:29 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Sorry, Dave
Wed Jan 15 04:18:22 2003
216.191.233.238

In rereading your comments, I find that I simply repeated what you had already said. Sorry about that.
George
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  #8  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:30 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

andy barnett
He 219 serials
Fri Feb 28 01:37:33 2003
210.48.24.32

Hi
does anyone know the werk number batches for the A-5 to A-7 's ?

thanks
andyb
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  #9  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:31 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Re: He 219 serials
Fri Feb 28 03:32:53 2003
216.191.233.207

Good luck because I don't think there is hard evidence to show that the A-5 and A-7 were ever produced on a production line. If either one had, you would think it would have been brought home by either the US or Britain. But the British ended up getting 4 A-2s, and an A-5/R2, converted from V11. And I believe the US one is either an A-0 or A-2. Remember, they were producing only A-2s as late as November 1944, and I don't really believe, regardless of what Remp says in his book on the He 219, that they were in a position to open up new model production lines after that, especially when the engines that were to power these aircraft were either produced in only minute quantities (DB 603E) or not at all (DB 603G).
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  #10  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:32 PM
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From TOCH!:

Aziraphale
Re: He 219 serials
Fri Feb 28 22:56:09 2003
62.156.30.146

Hi George,

I get more and more the impression that it is not so wrong what you say...
Evidence on DB 603G is just non-existant AFAIK and if there were versions produced which were designated A-5, then they probably were fitted with a DB 603A variant.

Very interesting...
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  #11  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:32 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
He 219 captured by UK
Sat Mar 1 00:24:39 2003
134.117.137.215

Apparently the He 219 A-5/R2 I mentioned yesterday was powered by DB 603As.

George
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  #12  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:33 PM
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From TOCH!:

Aziraphale
Re: He 219 captured by UK
Sat Mar 1 14:18:08 2003
62.224.25.163

Any source for that?
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  #13  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:34 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Source for He 219A-5/R2
Sat Mar 1 22:24:34 2003
134.117.137.89

Good for you for asking. I have 2 references for the aircraft: "The Captive Luftwaffe" by Ken West, p. 56, where it has a W.Nr. of 310 189; and "War Prizes" by Phil Butler, p. 59, where it is W.Nr. 310 180. I'm certain they are the same aircraft.

I should have been more positive in my identification of its engines, they were definitely DB 603As, Nrs. 01300146 and 01300163, both built at Marienfelde. Now, you may ask what reference do I have for the engine numbers. They are from a report dated 4 Sep 44, on 178 603s that were sent to Antwerp for rebuilding.
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  #14  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:35 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
Ooop, ...
Sat Mar 1 23:26:48 2003
216.191.233.208

I should have mentioned "War Prizes" pages 81 and 82 which tie the W.Nrs. of the 219s headed for the UK together. These pages list:
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 290 126 D5+BL
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 310 109 no code recorded
He 219 A-5/R2 W.Nr. 310 189 D5+CL (sheet 2 of a report on foreign aircraft, [p. 59] says this is actually 310 180)
He 219 A W.Nr. 310 200 D5+DL. Probably an A-2.

In addition, again from "War Prizes", the USA took home the following aircraft:
He 219 A-0 W.Nr. 210 903 SP+CR
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 290 060 CS+QG
He 219 A W.Nr. 290 202. No code or type, although from its serial it would appear to be an A-2. It's the one preserved at Silver Hill, or whereever.

In his book "Wings of the Luftwaffe" Eric Brown mentions having ferried 3 He 219A-2s: W.Nr. 290 126, 310 109, and 310 106. An abbreviated version of this report on the He 219 is on pp. 155 of Remp's "He 219," and directly contradicts the type designation Remp gives to the He 219s he says were taken to the UK.

Remp, mentions the He 219s delivered to the UK as being:
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 290 123 G9+TH
He 219 A-7 W.Nr. 310 109 G9+VH
He 219 A-7 W.Nr. 310 106
He 219 A-7 W.Nr. 310 189 G9+CL
He 219 A-7 W.Nr. 310 215

He allocates the serial ranges of the various production sub-types as follows (p. 149):
290 000 A-2
290 100 A-2
290 200 A-2
310 000 A-7
310 100 A-7
310 300 A-2
410 000 A-5

So now you know everything about the He 219 and can make up your own mind as to the sub-types of the aircraft and their serial number ranges.

Good luck,
George

PS. Before I forget, "The Captive Luftwaffe" lists the following aircraft as having been flown from Schleswig to the RAE:
He 219 A-5/R2 (ex. V11) W.Nr. 310 189
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 290 126
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 290 106
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 310 109
He 219 A-2 W.Nr. 310 215. Mr. West mentions no codes for any of these aircraft, but states "they were possibly all at one time with I/NJG 1."
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:36 PM
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From TOCH!:

George Hopp
And, one last thing...
Sun Mar 2 16:11:46 2003
216.191.233.207

In my self-imposed argument about whether the A-5/R2's number was 310 180 or 310 189, it was obviously 310 189 because there is a photo of the aircraft, with the W.Nr. very clear, on Page 82 of "War Prizes."

A possible reason for not seeing 310 200 in the UK is because it was apparently the He 219 that crashed at Grove on 21 July 1945 (Butler, p. 82).

And, I notice I never mentioned the aircraft listed on Sheet 2 of the report on "Foreign Aircraft" in Butler, p. 59. They are:
He 219 W.Nr. 290 126 Air Min 20
He 219 W.Nr. 310 109 Air Min 21
He 219 W.Nr. 310 180 Air Min 22
He 219 Air Min 44
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2003, 12:48 PM
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From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
He 219s in Britain
Sat Mar 1 15:15:08 2003
212.159.49.97

If this helps, there is a list in the PRO (reference not to hand right now) of German aircraft selected to be taken to Britain. The following He 219s are listed (all at Grove, Denmark):

290126, D5+BL
310109
D5+CL, 310198
D5+DL, 310200

No sub-types mentioned, I'm afraid.
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:54 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Sturm
HE-219 with Jumo 222
Mon Jun 9 19:47:16 2003
208.46.60.129

I am trying to track down some information on this bird, does anyone have any books or links with info on this? I have a few books on the 219, and the one from Schiffer is the best I have found so far. Amazing plane with this engine mounted. Any help would be appreciated.
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:55 PM
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From TOCH!:

steve gallacci
Jumo222s
Tue Jun 10 15:04:11 2003
12.228.13.193

From what I've seen in various references, there were all kinds of plans for 222 powered '219s, but there seems to be only meager mentions of maybe a few prototypes ever being fitted with them. Considering that there were only a small number of engines built and that they were difficult to operate, I'd be suprised if any more than a single machine or two were every fitted or flew with them. Interestingly, while one ref shows a drawing of the 222 installation in the Hu211 derivitive of the '219, another source showing a general arrangement drawing suggests that Jumo224 Diesel engines were to be fitted.
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:56 PM
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From TOCH!:

Aziraphale
He 219 with Jumo 222
Tue Jun 10 20:41:13 2003
217.233.12.254

Hi,

from what I've read so far I can only confirm your assumption, Steve. IF anybody has got photos or detailed information on its use with 219 I'd be most glad - but I really doubt it (as well as the use of DB 603 G...).

Cheers, Azi.
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  #20  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:56 PM
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From TOCH!:

Andy Mitchell
HE-219 with Jumo 222/DB 603G
Tue Jun 10 23:09:42 2003
80.2.186.30

Set out below are some bits from Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich (p356-7) - you may have this already or it may have been superceded by more recent research, whatever - hope it is of some help.

1. He 419 V1 (419A-0) utilized the fusalage and the tail assembly of the He 219A-5 married to DB603G engines and a new wing of 597 sq ft.
2. He 419A-1 production model of A-0 above with redesigned rear fusalage and tail assembly (single fin and rudder - not produced.
3. He 419B-1/R1 next development with the DB 603G - exhaust driven turbo chargers, A-5 fusalage, tail surfaces similar to the He 319 and a wing of greater span with an area of 635 sq ft. Armament, endurance and max speed are also quoted. Interestingly, Green indicates that 6 aircraft were built using A-5 fusalages but states that their fate was not known.( Smith & Kay also include that statement - indicating that their source may be the same as Green's)
4. He 219A-7/R6 Jumo 222 test aircraft (KZ+RZ) flown late summer 1944 max speed attained 435mph.
5. He 219B-1 high altitude three seat variant proposed to be powered by Jumo 222 but due to that engines production difficulties replaced with DB603Aa in the sole aircraft produced.
6. He 219B-3 Heinkel received an instruction from Technischen Amt to install Jumo 222s in this aircraft but they never arrived.(The aircraft never flew)
7.He 219C-1 Nachtjäger - B series wing + new fusalage accommodating a crew of 4. Jumo 222 engines were to be installed but were not delivered by the wars end. (small profile in Green - will scan and e-mail if wanted)
8. He 219C-2 Jagdbomber - B series wing + new fusalage accommodating a crew of 4. Jumo 222 engines were to be installed but as with the C-1 were not delivered by the wars end. (small profile in Green - will scan and e-mail if wanted).
9. Hü 211 - High altitude recce aircraft with a He 219 fusalage, Jumo 222 engines (MW 50 injection)plus a laminar flow wing. Additional technical data is then included followed by the comment that work began on the construction of two sets of wings for the Hü 211, these were completed and load tested. An airframe was started to be adapted to take the wings (note no dates are quoted). Heinkel were instructed to take over the project in Nov 1944 but the transfer han not been completed when the factory storing the wings was badly damaged in a bombing raid (undated and no located stated).


Hope the above is of some help.

regards

Andy Mitchell
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