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  #1  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:47 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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JoeB
Ar 234 Downing-Again
Sun Oct 19 20:53:15 2003
67.83.207.168

Reflecting previous thread and buying and reviewing the Smith/Creek monograph on Ar 234, I'm closer to knowing the first one downed in air combat, but still confused:

Dec 31 1944: Ltc John C. Meyer 352nd FG is first to claim an Ar 234, over the Ardennes. But Parker in "To Win the Winter Sky" says this was a machine of III./KG 76 that reported the combat but returned to base. Smith/Creek say 6./KG 76 was active in the Ardennes but III./KG76 not til Feb 45, but doesn't mention this incident either way.

Feb 22 1945: 8th and 9th AF fighters claim 5/2/14 German jets dest/prob/dam and 7 262's are destroyed in combat with others damaged plus 2 operational losses (Foreman/Harvey "Me 262 Combat Diary"). One of the 262 claims listed is by Lt. David B. Fox of the 366th FG (9th AF P-47 unit). It is also listed as a 262 in the appendix to Hess "German Jets v the USAAF", but in Hess's text it's described as an Ar 234 which bellied in after Fox ran out of ammo and was forced to break off anyway by friendly AAA.

Feb 24 1945: this is the date given in Smith/Creek for an Ar 234 "forced down" by USAAF P-47's near Segelsdorf and recovered by Allies forces mostly intact the next day. This date is repeated in a number of places (eg. websites) but maybe all coming from that book.

Feb 25 1945: 41 sdn Sptifire claims an Ar 234 (per post on previous Ar 234 thread).

Can anyone give a source that resolves the date anomaly between the Fox claim and date given by Smith/Creek for the recovered Ar 234, or gives another explanation for a downing Feb 24?

Joe
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:48 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Lt. Fox's "Me 262" ...
Wed Oct 22 22:41:37 2003
80.225.123.42

...was actually Ar 234 WNr. 140173, F1+MT of 9./KG 76.

One of my few claims to fame is an article I did for Aviation News in October 1988 which finally got this story straight.

The aircraft was shot down on 22 February (it's recorded as 20% damaged in Luftwaffe records on that date).

It was captured by the Allies on the 24th. The location was SELGERSDORF, not "Segelsdorf". The RAF Intelligence report described the location and so I checked a map, I guess no one else had since 1945!

Tracking it all through the archives, I was able to find how (in a report compiled a month after the event) the capture date was substituted for the shootdown date and the place name was misspelled.
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  #3  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:49 AM
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From TOCH!:

Walt
Ar 234
Mon Oct 20 15:07:28 2003
209.193.81.174

According to S&C the first Ar 234 shot down was w/n 140319, F1+DR of 7./KG 76 on 23 Dec 1944. Pilot Dorn was KIA.

Walt
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  #4  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:50 AM
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From TOCH!:

JoeB
Smith/Creek
Mon Oct 20 16:57:46 2003
67.83.207.168

Walt,

I'm looking at "Blitz Germany's Arado Ar 234 Jet Bomber" by Smith and Creek, Monograph 318, published (reprint) by Merriam Press. I couldn't find the incident you refer to. Could you be more specific, and does your source say what caused the loss? Thanks.

Joe
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:51 AM
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From TOCH!:

Walt
Ar 234
Mon Oct 20 19:06:56 2003
209.193.81.11

Page 254

Walt
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:51 AM
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From TOCH!:

JoeB
Smith/Creek
Tue Oct 21 00:54:50 2003
67.83.207.168

OK we're on to something because the book I'm lookng at, "Blitz Germany's Arado Ar 234 Jet Bomber" by those authors has only 73 pages. So I guess you're talking about another book, could you give the full title and authors?

Joe
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  #7  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:53 AM
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From TOCH!:

Walt
Ar 234
Tue Oct 21 17:25:54 2003
209.193.81.36

Monogram "Arado 234 Blitz," J. Richard Smith & Eddir J Creek, Monogram Aviation Publications, 1992. Sorry about the mix-up. The full entry is as follows:
"140319 To 7./KG 76 as F1+DR on November 20, 1944, shot down in Magdeburg area on December 23, 1944, Uffz. Karl Dorn, killed."

Walt
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2003, 10:56 AM
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From TOCH!:

PhilippeDM
Ar 234 downed on 25.04.1945 - 140609 - T5+BH
Tue Oct 21 15:03:57 2003
80.200.221.27

Strange how things turn out, sometimes….
Well, I was reading your comments on the Arado Ar 234 kill on TOCH Discussion Board earlier and took it with me in order to compare with the literature I have.

In Manfred Griehls work (the last published book to my knowledge concerning the Ar 234), he mentions very briefly the incident (p 109)
“... Am 25.04.1945 schossen amerikanische P-51 Mustang einen der Strahlaufklärer über Oberbayern (vom 1.(F)100)ab. Die maschine war im Raum Salzburg – Traunstein – Reichenhall von den Piloten mehrerer P-51 erkannt worden. In der nähe von Berchtesgaden stieg die Flugzeugführer mit dem Fallschirm aus und die Ar 234 B-2b zerschelte am Boden.”
or
"... On 25.04.1945 American P-51 Mustangs shoot down a recce jet aircraft (from 1.(F) 100) over Oberbayern. This plane was recognised by different P-51 pilots in the region of Salzburg - Traunstein - Reichenhall. The pilot jumped out his plane by parachute near Berchtesgade and the Ar 234 B-2b was destroyed on the ground"

So this indeed is not very interesting, nor relevant.

Meanwhile, I was reading through, the last Luftwaffe in Focus (vol. 3) .

On p.42 there is an article written by Christian Möller covering the last flight of Ofw Nitschke of 1.(F)/100 in the Me 262 “V555” WNr. 100555. Beside that interesting story and the associated pictures, an excerpt of Nitschke’s Flugbuch is printed (ask for *.tif file, I don't know how to post). In the epilogue (they translated it as prologue) next text is printed:

“Prologue
Ofw Nitschke had come from Wekusta 26, which bad been disbanded in Neubrandenburg at the end of February 1945. He was then trained to fly jet aircraft. The first step was a high-altitude suitability course on the Zugspitze in Bavaria, which lasted about four weeks. There he underwent a series of medical examinations and tests in a centrifuge.
Finally, on 1 April 1945, he began conversion training on the Ar 234. There was theoretical instruction information on the jet engines, takeoff, restarting the engines in the air and so on. After that they, "simply sat us in the machine and away we went. The speed was three times greater than anything we had flown before. One stood on the brakes until the engines reached full power, and then came the breathtaking takeoff, " wrote Karl Nitschke.
On 10 April the Americans bombed Burg. The hangars were all destroyed and the runway was rendered unusable. "Thank God, our aircraft were in blast pens next to the autobahn and escaped damage. Later we simply took off from the autobahn, " recalled Nitschke.
At 1825 hours on 12 April he took off in Ar 234 Werk-Nr. 140609 to ferry it to its operational unit, 1. (F)/100 at Grossenhain. On that day 1. (F)/100's operational strength was three serviceable aircraft (authorized strength was 12 and actual strength 5). The Staffel was attached to Luftwaffenkommando West
On 14 April Nitscbke flew to Lechfeld, where on 24 April be few his first operational mission in Ar 234 T5+BH. He landed at Müncben-Riem, from where on 29 April he flew T9+NL to Hörsching. There the Staffel was augmented by personnel and aircraft of I./NAG 13 before it transferred to Prague-Ruzyne.”

So it does not enlighten the loss of this plane on April 25th due to a P-51 Mustang attack, but proof its existence and his WNr. (see flugbuch entries nr. 1329 à 38….)

All the very best!
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2003, 11:16 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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"Arado 234 Blitz", By J. Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek, Monogram Monarch Series.

Regards,
Richard
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2003, 11:23 AM
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"Arado 234 B", Monogram Close-Up 23.

Regards,
Richard
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  #11  
Old 12-31-2003, 12:16 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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For information on the book On Special Missions: The Luftwaffe's Research and Experimental Squadrons, 1923-1945, which contains information on the testing of the Ar 234, the reader is referred the topic "Books on the Versuchsverband" on the "References & Reference Materials" forum.

Regards,
Richard
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  #12  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:38 AM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Sergey
Some questions on Ar.234C.
Mon Dec 15 10:54:43 2003
212.193.68.10

Hi all!

I'm working on the DML model of Ar.234C and look for any info regarding to combat use of this a/c. There are some questions I want to be answered:


1. Five prototypes of the Ar.234 C-3 (V21-V25) with "bulged" canopy were built in 1944. Is there any info about these
a/c (e.g. W.Nr serials, possibly combat use).

2. There are some claims in i-net ( e.g. http://www.ipmsdeutschland.de/FirstL...C3_Revell.html ) that several Ar.234C a/c served in III./EKG 1, Stab/KG76 è 1.(F)/123.
Are there any confirmations on this? If it's true, did these a/c wear tactical codes of corresponding units?

3. Are markings schemes of Revell 1/48 Ar.234 C-3 kit decals
(Arado Ar 234 W.Nr. 250 010 F1+VS 8./KG76 Burg bei Magdeburg 1945, and Arado Ar 234 W.Nr. 250 009 T9+HB I./Stab Versuchsverband OKL 1945) real in any kind?
Are there any confirmations (photos, memoires etc.)? It's VERY interesting for me, because these variants have W.Nrs of real a/c.

Thanks!

Best regards,
Sergey.
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  #13  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:39 AM
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From TOCH!:

Steffen Arndt
alpha_tango@gmx.de
Ar 234 C
Mon Dec 15 14:55:03 2003
217.229.177.93

Hello Sergey

As I'm administrating the site you refer to I must add some comments.

If you read the article carefully, you will notice that only some planes are documented. This is WNr. 250 001, 250 006 and 250 012 by photo and some others by texts (including T9 + HB).

AFAIK, there is no evidence that any C- variant planes were used by KG 76 or 1.(F)/123 (while there is a kill report for a C-Model from this unit) .

I would love to hear that I'm wrong as the model is on my to do list too...

Best regards

Steffen
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  #14  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:41 AM
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From TOCH!:

Sergey
Ar.234C again
Wed Dec 17 14:12:51 2003
212.193.68.10

Hi!

> If you read the article carefully, you will notice that only some planes are documented. This is WNr. 250 001, 250 006 and 250 012 by photo and some others by texts (including T9 + HB).

OK, I know, that only three 234Cs were documented by photo (all of them presented also on 1/48 Cutting Edge decal), and the main point of my interest was the evidence of non-photographed a/c. T9+HB is real?! Wow!!! And what are "some others", were they operational? Was the problem highlighted in any kind in DavId Myhra's "Arado 234C" book?

> AFAIK, there is no evidence that any C- variant planes were used by KG 76 or 1.(F)/123 (while there is a kill report for a C-Model from this unit) .

Have you any details of this report (date, district etc.)?

Thanks a lot!

Best regards,
Sergey.
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  #15  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:42 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Alan Scheckenbach
Ar234C
Wed Dec 17 22:50:13 2003
203.10.231.231

Sergey,

I don't have my copy of the Smith & Creek book here to confirm much about the C models but Erich Sommer of Kdo. Sommer at Campoformido near Udine in northern Italy tells me that he was allocated one right at the end of the war but he did not come up to Germany to get it. It was parked at München-Riems and was captured there.

Kdo Sommer's identification code was T9 and this HB might have been his aircraft even though his aircraft were coded EH, DH and FH. HB may have been from 1.(F)/123, Horst Götz's unit.

It was my general understanding that no C models made it into active service.

Cheers

Alan
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  #16  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:43 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Steffen Arndt
Re: Ar 234 C
Mon Dec 29 17:23:18 2003
217.237.57.182

Hello Sergey

I did not write this article but I asked the author and he said that all info came from the Monogram book (Smith & Creek). I do not own this book.

I looked in the book from Griehl ( Ar 234 Motorbuch Verlag 2003 - http://www.ssl-128.de/ppv/ppv/verlag...artverlag.php? ) but not much info there.

Sorry that I do not have more..

Best regards

and a happy and hopefully peaceful new year 2004

Steffen
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:35 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Jose Luis Fauste
Looking for info about Ar-234 C WkNr
Tue Jan 13 21:07:15 2004
62.83.151.131

Anyone knows the WkNr of the Ar-234 C delivered to the Luftwaffe?
Any tactical code or number were aplied to these a/c's?

TIA regards

Jose Luis Fauste
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  #18  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:37 PM
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From TOCH!:

Dave Brown
Arado 234 C-3
Wed Jan 14 00:22:12 2004
24.50.218.28

Jose:

W.Nr.250006 belonged to an Arado 234C-3 that was captured by the US Army in 1945. There are several pictures of this aircraft in a book entitled "Arado 234 Blitz" by J.Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek. Although the national markings can be seen, I cannot see any unit codes. According to the book, "..it is thought that nineteen AR234 C-3s were completed before the end of the war, the last one shown in photographs is the W.Nr. 250012." This implies that the W.Nr. series for the C-3's were coded 2500XX. Hope this helps.
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:37 PM
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From TOCH!:

Jose Luis Fauste
Thank you a lot Dave (nm)
Wed Jan 14 06:40:20 2004
194.69.224.8
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  #20  
Old 06-11-2004, 10:34 AM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Huib Ottens
KG 6 Book Wir flogen gen Westen and other forthcoming titles
Mon May 31, 2004 21:23
195.121.31.89

Gruppe,

Following the message by Ed West here is some more info about the book: "Wir flogen gen westen"; Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders 6 der deutschen Luftwaffe
by Jan Horn. ISBN 3-00-013291-0

Contents (roughly translated) and page number:

 Preface / 3
 The birth of the Geschwaderstab / 4
 The development into a Kampfgeschwader / 7
 Between Leningrad and Stalingrad / 11
 Pathfinders and Illuminators over England / 23
 Support for Rommel / 50
 The Angriffsführer England / 60
 Operation Husky / 117
 Operations of II./KG 6 over the Aegean Sea / 127
 Operation Overlord / 137
 Conversion to Fighters in the Prague area / 174
 With the Me 262 in the Reichsverteidigung / 185
 Abbreviations / 201
 KG 6 holders of the Deutschen Kreuz / 203
 KG 6 holders of the Ritterkreuz / 205
 Index of places / 206
 Index of names / 214
 Index of units / 224
 KG 6 organisation / 226
 Sources and Bibliography / 232
 Conclusion / 234
 Acknowledgements / 235
 KG 6 Loss list / 237
 KG 6 Personnel / 286

I haven’t had time to read the book yet, but the overall impression is good.
Large format book (same as Prien), good text (rather large type size and line spacing) few photos and quite small photo reproduction.
A detailed and chronological history of the youngest Kampfgeschwader of the Luftwaffe with a highly detailed loss list and a complete list of personnel with photos of a lot of key figures KG 6. Good indexes.

Well produced work, but unfortunately lacking in the photographic department. Still recommended.

Forthcoming publications by this author (Very interesting and exciting):

Das “Flurschadengeschwader”; The Me 262 in the ground-attack role with KG 51 from august 1944 until the end of the war.

Die Ergänzungsgruppe und die Sonderstaffel; The chronological history of IV. /KG 6 and 14., 15., and 16./Kg 6

Uns folgte der Tod; Operations with the Ar 234. The chronological history of II. and II./KG 76 from august 1944 until the end of the war.

Nurflügel Forever!

Huib
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