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Books on Ar 234 - 4
From 12 O'Clock High!:
JoeB Ar 234 Downing-Again Sun Oct 19 20:53:15 2024 67.83.207.168 Reflecting previous thread and buying and reviewing the Smith/Creek monograph on Ar 234, I'm closer to knowing the first one downed in air combat, but still confused: Dec 31 1944: Ltc John C. Meyer 352nd FG is first to claim an Ar 234, over the Ardennes. But Parker in "To Win the Winter Sky" says this was a machine of III./KG 76 that reported the combat but returned to base. Smith/Creek say 6./KG 76 was active in the Ardennes but III./KG76 not til Feb 45, but doesn't mention this incident either way. Feb 22 1945: 8th and 9th AF fighters claim 5/2/14 German jets dest/prob/dam and 7 262's are destroyed in combat with others damaged plus 2 operational losses (Foreman/Harvey "Me 262 Combat Diary"). One of the 262 claims listed is by Lt. David B. Fox of the 366th FG (9th AF P-47 unit). It is also listed as a 262 in the appendix to Hess "German Jets v the USAAF", but in Hess's text it's described as an Ar 234 which bellied in after Fox ran out of ammo and was forced to break off anyway by friendly AAA. Feb 24 1945: this is the date given in Smith/Creek for an Ar 234 "forced down" by USAAF P-47's near Segelsdorf and recovered by Allies forces mostly intact the next day. This date is repeated in a number of places (eg. websites) but maybe all coming from that book. Feb 25 1945: 41 sdn Sptifire claims an Ar 234 (per post on previous Ar 234 thread). Can anyone give a source that resolves the date anomaly between the Fox claim and date given by Smith/Creek for the recovered Ar 234, or gives another explanation for a downing Feb 24? Joe |
#2
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From TOCH!:
Nick Beale Lt. Fox's "Me 262" ... Wed Oct 22 22:41:37 2024 80.225.123.42 ...was actually Ar 234 WNr. 140173, F1+MT of 9./KG 76. One of my few claims to fame is an article I did for Aviation News in October 1988 which finally got this story straight. The aircraft was shot down on 22 February (it's recorded as 20% damaged in Luftwaffe records on that date). It was captured by the Allies on the 24th. The location was SELGERSDORF, not "Segelsdorf". The RAF Intelligence report described the location and so I checked a map, I guess no one else had since 1945! Tracking it all through the archives, I was able to find how (in a report compiled a month after the event) the capture date was substituted for the shootdown date and the place name was misspelled. |
#3
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From TOCH!:
Walt Ar 234 Mon Oct 20 15:07:28 2024 209.193.81.174 According to S&C the first Ar 234 shot down was w/n 140319, F1+DR of 7./KG 76 on 23 Dec 1944. Pilot Dorn was KIA. Walt |
#4
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From TOCH!:
JoeB Smith/Creek Mon Oct 20 16:57:46 2024 67.83.207.168 Walt, I'm looking at "Blitz Germany's Arado Ar 234 Jet Bomber" by Smith and Creek, Monograph 318, published (reprint) by Merriam Press. I couldn't find the incident you refer to. Could you be more specific, and does your source say what caused the loss? Thanks. Joe |
#5
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From TOCH!:
Walt Ar 234 Mon Oct 20 19:06:56 2024 209.193.81.11 Page 254 Walt |
#6
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From TOCH!:
JoeB Smith/Creek Tue Oct 21 00:54:50 2024 67.83.207.168 OK we're on to something because the book I'm lookng at, "Blitz Germany's Arado Ar 234 Jet Bomber" by those authors has only 73 pages. So I guess you're talking about another book, could you give the full title and authors? Joe |
#7
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From TOCH!:
Walt Ar 234 Tue Oct 21 17:25:54 2024 209.193.81.36 Monogram "Arado 234 Blitz," J. Richard Smith & Eddir J Creek, Monogram Aviation Publications, 1992. Sorry about the mix-up. The full entry is as follows: "140319 To 7./KG 76 as F1+DR on November 20, 1944, shot down in Magdeburg area on December 23, 1944, Uffz. Karl Dorn, killed." Walt |
#8
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From TOCH!:
PhilippeDM Ar 234 downed on 25.04.1945 - 140609 - T5+BH Tue Oct 21 15:03:57 2024 80.200.221.27 Strange how things turn out, sometimes…. Well, I was reading your comments on the Arado Ar 234 kill on TOCH Discussion Board earlier and took it with me in order to compare with the literature I have. In Manfred Griehls work (the last published book to my knowledge concerning the Ar 234), he mentions very briefly the incident (p 109) “... Am 25.04.1945 schossen amerikanische P-51 Mustang einen der Strahlaufklärer über Oberbayern (vom 1.(F)100)ab. Die maschine war im Raum Salzburg – Traunstein – Reichenhall von den Piloten mehrerer P-51 erkannt worden. In der nähe von Berchtesgaden stieg die Flugzeugführer mit dem Fallschirm aus und die Ar 234 B-2b zerschelte am Boden.” or "... On 25.04.1945 American P-51 Mustangs shoot down a recce jet aircraft (from 1.(F) 100) over Oberbayern. This plane was recognised by different P-51 pilots in the region of Salzburg - Traunstein - Reichenhall. The pilot jumped out his plane by parachute near Berchtesgade and the Ar 234 B-2b was destroyed on the ground" So this indeed is not very interesting, nor relevant. Meanwhile, I was reading through, the last Luftwaffe in Focus (vol. 3) . On p.42 there is an article written by Christian Möller covering the last flight of Ofw Nitschke of 1.(F)/100 in the Me 262 “V555” WNr. 100555. Beside that interesting story and the associated pictures, an excerpt of Nitschke’s Flugbuch is printed (ask for *.tif file, I don't know how to post). In the epilogue (they translated it as prologue) next text is printed: “Prologue Ofw Nitschke had come from Wekusta 26, which bad been disbanded in Neubrandenburg at the end of February 1945. He was then trained to fly jet aircraft. The first step was a high-altitude suitability course on the Zugspitze in Bavaria, which lasted about four weeks. There he underwent a series of medical examinations and tests in a centrifuge. Finally, on 1 April 1945, he began conversion training on the Ar 234. There was theoretical instruction information on the jet engines, takeoff, restarting the engines in the air and so on. After that they, "simply sat us in the machine and away we went. The speed was three times greater than anything we had flown before. One stood on the brakes until the engines reached full power, and then came the breathtaking takeoff, " wrote Karl Nitschke. On 10 April the Americans bombed Burg. The hangars were all destroyed and the runway was rendered unusable. "Thank God, our aircraft were in blast pens next to the autobahn and escaped damage. Later we simply took off from the autobahn, " recalled Nitschke. At 1825 hours on 12 April he took off in Ar 234 Werk-Nr. 140609 to ferry it to its operational unit, 1. (F)/100 at Grossenhain. On that day 1. (F)/100's operational strength was three serviceable aircraft (authorized strength was 12 and actual strength 5). The Staffel was attached to Luftwaffenkommando West On 14 April Nitscbke flew to Lechfeld, where on 24 April be few his first operational mission in Ar 234 T5+BH. He landed at Müncben-Riem, from where on 29 April he flew T9+NL to Hörsching. There the Staffel was augmented by personnel and aircraft of I./NAG 13 before it transferred to Prague-Ruzyne.” So it does not enlighten the loss of this plane on April 25th due to a P-51 Mustang attack, but proof its existence and his WNr. (see flugbuch entries nr. 1329 à 38….) All the very best! |
#9
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"Arado 234 Blitz", By J. Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek, Monogram Monarch Series.
Regards, Richard |
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"Arado 234 B", Monogram Close-Up 23.
Regards, Richard |
#11
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For information on the book On Special Missions: The Luftwaffe's Research and Experimental Squadrons, 1923-1945, which contains information on the testing of the Ar 234, the reader is referred the topic "Books on the Versuchsverband" on the "References & Reference Materials" forum.
Regards, Richard |
#12
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From 12 O'Clock High!:
Sergey Some questions on Ar.234C. Mon Dec 15 10:54:43 2024 212.193.68.10 Hi all! I'm working on the DML model of Ar.234C and look for any info regarding to combat use of this a/c. There are some questions I want to be answered: 1. Five prototypes of the Ar.234 C-3 (V21-V25) with "bulged" canopy were built in 1944. Is there any info about these a/c (e.g. W.Nr serials, possibly combat use). 2. There are some claims in i-net ( e.g. http://www.ipmsdeutschland.de/FirstL...C3_Revell.html ) that several Ar.234C a/c served in III./EKG 1, Stab/KG76 è 1.(F)/123. Are there any confirmations on this? If it's true, did these a/c wear tactical codes of corresponding units? 3. Are markings schemes of Revell 1/48 Ar.234 C-3 kit decals (Arado Ar 234 W.Nr. 250 010 F1+VS 8./KG76 Burg bei Magdeburg 1945, and Arado Ar 234 W.Nr. 250 009 T9+HB I./Stab Versuchsverband OKL 1945) real in any kind? Are there any confirmations (photos, memoires etc.)? It's VERY interesting for me, because these variants have W.Nrs of real a/c. Thanks! Best regards, Sergey. |
#13
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From TOCH!:
Steffen Arndt alpha_tango@gmx.de Ar 234 C Mon Dec 15 14:55:03 2024 217.229.177.93 Hello Sergey As I'm administrating the site you refer to I must add some comments. If you read the article carefully, you will notice that only some planes are documented. This is WNr. 250 001, 250 006 and 250 012 by photo and some others by texts (including T9 + HB). AFAIK, there is no evidence that any C- variant planes were used by KG 76 or 1.(F)/123 (while there is a kill report for a C-Model from this unit) . I would love to hear that I'm wrong as the model is on my to do list too... Best regards Steffen |
#14
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From TOCH!:
Sergey Ar.234C again Wed Dec 17 14:12:51 2024 212.193.68.10 Hi! > If you read the article carefully, you will notice that only some planes are documented. This is WNr. 250 001, 250 006 and 250 012 by photo and some others by texts (including T9 + HB). OK, I know, that only three 234Cs were documented by photo (all of them presented also on 1/48 Cutting Edge decal), and the main point of my interest was the evidence of non-photographed a/c. T9+HB is real?! Wow!!! And what are "some others", were they operational? Was the problem highlighted in any kind in DavId Myhra's "Arado 234C" book? > AFAIK, there is no evidence that any C- variant planes were used by KG 76 or 1.(F)/123 (while there is a kill report for a C-Model from this unit) . Have you any details of this report (date, district etc.)? Thanks a lot! Best regards, Sergey. |
#15
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From TOCH!:
Alan Scheckenbach Ar234C Wed Dec 17 22:50:13 2024 203.10.231.231 Sergey, I don't have my copy of the Smith & Creek book here to confirm much about the C models but Erich Sommer of Kdo. Sommer at Campoformido near Udine in northern Italy tells me that he was allocated one right at the end of the war but he did not come up to Germany to get it. It was parked at München-Riems and was captured there. Kdo Sommer's identification code was T9 and this HB might have been his aircraft even though his aircraft were coded EH, DH and FH. HB may have been from 1.(F)/123, Horst Götz's unit. It was my general understanding that no C models made it into active service. Cheers Alan |
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From TOCH!:
Steffen Arndt Re: Ar 234 C Mon Dec 29 17:23:18 2024 217.237.57.182 Hello Sergey I did not write this article but I asked the author and he said that all info came from the Monogram book (Smith & Creek). I do not own this book. I looked in the book from Griehl ( Ar 234 Motorbuch Verlag 2024 - http://www.ssl-128.de/ppv/ppv/verlag...artverlag.html? ) but not much info there. Sorry that I do not have more.. Best regards and a happy and hopefully peaceful new year 2024 Steffen |
#17
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From 12 O'Clock High!:
Jose Luis Fauste Looking for info about Ar-234 C WkNr Tue Jan 13 21:07:15 2024 62.83.151.131 Anyone knows the WkNr of the Ar-234 C delivered to the Luftwaffe? Any tactical code or number were aplied to these a/c's? TIA regards Jose Luis Fauste |
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From TOCH!:
Dave Brown Arado 234 C-3 Wed Jan 14 00:22:12 2024 24.50.218.28 Jose: W.Nr.250006 belonged to an Arado 234C-3 that was captured by the US Army in 1945. There are several pictures of this aircraft in a book entitled "Arado 234 Blitz" by J.Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek. Although the national markings can be seen, I cannot see any unit codes. According to the book, "..it is thought that nineteen AR234 C-3s were completed before the end of the war, the last one shown in photographs is the W.Nr. 250012." This implies that the W.Nr. series for the C-3's were coded 2500XX. Hope this helps. |
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From TOCH!:
Jose Luis Fauste Thank you a lot Dave (nm) Wed Jan 14 06:40:20 2024 194.69.224.8 |
#20
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From 12 O'Clock High!:
Huib Ottens KG 6 Book Wir flogen gen Westen and other forthcoming titles Mon May 31, 2024 21:23 195.121.31.89 Gruppe, Following the message by Ed West here is some more info about the book: "Wir flogen gen westen"; Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders 6 der deutschen Luftwaffe by Jan Horn. ISBN 3-00-013291-0 Contents (roughly translated) and page number: Preface / 3 The birth of the Geschwaderstab / 4 The development into a Kampfgeschwader / 7 Between Leningrad and Stalingrad / 11 Pathfinders and Illuminators over England / 23 Support for Rommel / 50 The Angriffsführer England / 60 Operation Husky / 117 Operations of II./KG 6 over the Aegean Sea / 127 Operation Overlord / 137 Conversion to Fighters in the Prague area / 174 With the Me 262 in the Reichsverteidigung / 185 Abbreviations / 201 KG 6 holders of the Deutschen Kreuz / 203 KG 6 holders of the Ritterkreuz / 205 Index of places / 206 Index of names / 214 Index of units / 224 KG 6 organisation / 226 Sources and Bibliography / 232 Conclusion / 234 Acknowledgements / 235 KG 6 Loss list / 237 KG 6 Personnel / 286 I haven’t had time to read the book yet, but the overall impression is good. Large format book (same as Prien), good text (rather large type size and line spacing) few photos and quite small photo reproduction. A detailed and chronological history of the youngest Kampfgeschwader of the Luftwaffe with a highly detailed loss list and a complete list of personnel with photos of a lot of key figures KG 6. Good indexes. Well produced work, but unfortunately lacking in the photographic department. Still recommended. Forthcoming publications by this author (Very interesting and exciting): Das “Flurschadengeschwader”; The Me 262 in the ground-attack role with KG 51 from august 1944 until the end of the war. Die Ergänzungsgruppe und die Sonderstaffel; The chronological history of IV. /KG 6 and 14., 15., and 16./Kg 6 Uns folgte der Tod; Operations with the Ar 234. The chronological history of II. and II./KG 76 from august 1944 until the end of the war. Nurflügel Forever! Huib |
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