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Old 03-23-2004, 01:19 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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Default NARA T313 microfilms - 12. Flak Division information

From 12 O'Clock High!:

k-pp
12. Flak Division - 27-09-41
Sat Mar 13 22:45:50 2004
195.153.60.109

Can anyone clarify where 12. Flak Division was on the 27th September 1941?

An OOB for Operation Typhoon is being discussed at www.feldgrau.com, and the division has been put in the list as a support unit of Pz.Gr.3 on 27-09-41.

This clashes with the information given at Michael Holm's site
( http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/12fladiv.htm ), which states the division only moved to Russia from France in February 1942.

Any ideas for this discrepancy?!

Thanks.
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:20 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Steve W.
12. Flakdivision
Sun Mar 14 01:25:27 2004
64.12.116.196

On 28 September 1941 the Division's Stab was located at Ripshevo in support of Panzergruppe 3. [Source: NARA WashDC, Record Group 242, Microcopy T-313, roll 232 (records of Pz.Gr. 3), frame 960]. Michael Holm's data has many errors, depending on what published sources he took his information from.

Steve W.
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:20 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

k-pp
Thanks Steve [n/t]
Sun Mar 14 15:11:08 2004
195.153.60.109
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:37 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

k-pp
Wolfgang Dierich
Sun Mar 14 15:45:41 2004
195.153.60.109

To add to your information Steve, I just found the following notes I made some time ago from Wolfgang Dierich's "Die Verbaende der Luftwaffe 1939-1945" (1976):

12 Fl.Div.
Sept. 41 raised in France and sent to Hr.gr.Mitte
Winter 1941/42 loses all equipment and becomes Stab "Gefechtsverband Schlemm"
1942 - built up again.
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:38 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Steve W.
That's essentially correct, ....
Sun Mar 14 16:48:49 2004
205.188.208.167

....but it's far more complex than that. 12. Flakdivision was just a divisional Stab with an array of constantly changing Flakregimentstäbe and Flakabteilungen subordinated to it. Some of the components were destroyed or decimated during the great withdrawal movement and heavy defensive fighting in the winter of 1941-42 while others were not. But in a broad context, Dierich's treatment is basically correct.

Steve W.
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:38 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

k-pp
On an off-chance...
Sun Mar 14 23:44:19 2004
195.153.60.109

Thanks Steve for your observation.

On a complete off-chance, would you happen to have any information about the following two units between, say, November/December 1941 and March 1942:
Flak Transport Abteilung 60 (L 35842, which I think was the Divisionsnachschubführer for 12. Fl. Div. in March 1942).
Flak Transportbatterie 2./41 (L21699, which took part in Op. Typhoon).

I think my grandfather was transferred from the latter to the former at some point towards the end of 1941 or early 1942, possibly on a promotion from Leutnant to Oberleutnant.

Best wishes,
Karl
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Steve W.
Flak-Transport-
Mon Mar 15 11:58:56 2004
64.12.116.196

Just a few fragments, I'm sorry to say.

Flak-Transport-Abt. 60: reported one man WIA at Pochev on 07.09.41, and the Abteilungstab was located in Smolensk during the first half of October, according to entries in the Loss Reports and in T-313, roll 88.

Flak-Trsp.Battr. 2./41 (later 106/IV): was at Bobruisk (07.41); Stary Bychov (07.41 - 08.41); Ponyatovka (08.41); Shatalovka and Seshchinskaya (09.41); Yuchnov (10.41); Maloyaroslavets (11.41 - 12.41). Battr.-Chef may have been an Oblt. Beutler.

Regretably, that's all I have for that time frame. It is very difficult to find information on these small units of the Flakartillerie, Bodenorganisation and the Luftnachrichtentruppe. Do you have any additional details on these two Flak-Trsp. (Traba) units?

HTH,

Steve W.
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

k-pp
Trabas
Tue Mar 16 20:07:08 2004
213.40.67.65

Every snippet of information is received with much gratitude - thank you very much Steve!

My grandfather served with Trabas throughout the war, and the following information is squeezed from his letters. The geographical information you gave for 2./41 in Barbarossa matches exactly, but Oblt. Beutler was, by Oct. 1941, Hptm. of Traba 1./62. Beutler (as a Lt.) was a temporarily attached to 2./41 from 1./62 during the attack on France in 1940.



Flak Transportbatterie 2./41 (L21699)

November 1939 - Traba 2./41 at Xanten (where Lt. Penke joined it from Flak Ers.Abt. 2./36). Batteriechef was Oblt. Schlegel (with the Traba since 10/8/39) and the 200 men were from the Leipzig area.

15/11/39 - Traba moved to barracks at Duisburg-Wahnheimerort and operated on the left bank of the Rhine.

20/11/39 - Oblt. Schlegel + 65 men sent to Deep on the Baltic (and again from 9/3 to 11/4/40). The rest remained under Lt.Penke. The Abt.Kommandeur is in Ratingen.

May to July 1940 - Lt. Penke was absent from the unit, and was temporarily replaced by Lt. Beutler from Traba 1./62. Traba saw action in Belgium and France. I have Beutler's diary for a day by day account if your interested (it runs 14/5/41 to 8/7/41).

July 1940 to June 1941 - quartered at Tervueren / Kasteel Terborght between Brussels and Antwerp. Duties unclear, but February 1941 Lt. Penke (and section of 2./41?) part of an Erprobungskommando testing Siebel ferries off Dutch coast near Vlissingen.
Unit subordinated to Lvkdo 6? (Lt. Penke is awarded Kvk 2.kl.m.Schw. in April 1941 by Gen. Odebrecht, Lvkdo 6)

6 June 1941 - Traba sent to Siedlce / Warsaw, Poland.

June to December 1941 - A section of Traba under Lt. Penke goes east with Hr.Gr.Mitte and the airfields of JG.51:
6 July: Bobruisk
9 July - 9 Aug.: Stary Bichow (airport)
12 - to end Aug.: Ponjatowka
3 Sept. - 3 Oct.: Schatalowka (airport)
9 Oct.: Paumowa
15 - 20 Oct.: Juchnow
26 Oct - 13 Nov.: 10km east of Malojaroslawez

8 Dec.: Smolensk - New unit? Letter implies he is with a Rhineland raised Stab under a Hptm. Schöppner and an adjutant, Hptm. Gronemeyer.

19/12/41 - Lt. Penke heads for Hamburg. Next Feldpostnummer is L35842 in March 1942 (Fl.Trsp.Abt.60) and he's had a promotion to Oblt.

(Aug. 1944 - Oblt. Penke mentioned running into 2./41 (now 106/IV))

Flak Transport Abteilung 60 (L35842)

March 1942 - Hamburg? (Divisions Nachschubfuhrer 12.Fl.Div.)

Flak Transportbatterie 17/XI (L05692)

October / November 1942 - Hamburg?

Flak Transportbatterie 64/XII (L22441)

March 1943 - Hindenburg OS in LG VIII (Traba inspected by General Somme in May 1943).
Sept. 1943 - Oblt. Penke left Traba (shortly before Traba sent to Italy), and joined...

Flak Transportbatterie 91/VI (L35762)

New Year's Eve 1943/44 - Rownoje.
April 1944 - Focsani (Focsain), Rumania.
May 1944 - Przebiecany near Cracow.
(Sept. 1944 - Michael Holm's site indicates Traba is under 10.Fl.Div. with Penke's old unit 2./41 (now 106/IV), which, incidentally, Penke mentioned he ran across in Aug. 1944.)
April 1945 - Oblt. Penke's last letter home from Ostsudetenland, east of Prague.
---

!

If you would like to read Beutler's diary, let me know. It's an interesting document.
Thanks and best wishes,
Karl
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