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  #1  
Old 03-15-2002, 01:03 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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XCOR Aerospace has proposed to build a rocket powered flying replica Me 163. Brief information on this proposal, include a couple of photos and capsule history of the original aircraft, can be found at the following webpage:

http://www.xcor-aerospace.com/me163.html


Regards,
Richard
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2002, 02:48 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mark Howard
NASM 109
Mon Feb 18 18:06:42 2002
64.150.176.40

Does anyone know the true identity of NASM's 109?
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  #3  
Old 03-22-2002, 02:49 AM
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From TOCH!:

Ferdinando D'Amico
Summary...
Mon Feb 18 18:40:11 2002
151.27.18.54

Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr.160756 "yellow 4" of I./JG 4. Flown by Uffz. Renè Darbois who defected during a transfer flight on July 25, 1944 from Maniago to Ghedi and reached the airfield of S.Maria Capua Vetere (Caserta)surrendering.

There would be a lot more things to tell, but these are the hard data...

All the best

Ferdinando D'Amico
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  #4  
Old 03-22-2002, 02:51 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

richard dunn
That 109?
Mon Feb 18 19:32:34 2002
68.49.0.249

Ferdinando

I recall speaking to Robert Mikesh of the Smithsonian in 1972 when the aircraft was being restored. As I recall he indicated he was uncertain whether the aircraft was a G-5 or G-6. Either my memory is faulty or additional information was obtained at a later date. Do you know how the identity was established?

Darbois, born in Lorraine, cosidered himself a Frenchman and apparently found the transfer flight a golden opportunity to defect. The two staffeln of JG 4 were flying to Ghedi to be absorbed into JG 77. He made a perfect landing no damage to the aircraft so it I suppose it could well be the one.

Rick

-------

richard dunn
Correction
Mon Feb 18 19:49:16 2002
68.49.0.249

I should amend my statement about what Mikesh said. The aircraft had no antenna. Mikesh asked about whether it should be fitted with a long or short antenna. I inferred from his question that he did not know whether it was a G-5 or G-6. He may well have known the exact source of the aircraft. It was my conclusion that he did not but he did not say so directly. I'm surprised I can remember anything about that conversation 30 years ago!

Rick
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  #5  
Old 03-22-2002, 02:51 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Lynn Ritger
The exact identity of the aircraft...
Mon Feb 18 19:56:10 2002
209.97.5.125

was determined just a few years ago...there was an article in Air & Space (IIRC) with detailed information on how this came about. Given what information the restoration team had to work with at the time, they did a great job on it. It would be great to see it back in it's proper markings, though!

Lynn
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  #6  
Old 03-22-2002, 02:52 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Ferdinando D'Amico
How it happened...
Mon Feb 18 21:16:58 2002
151.27.24.128

Back in 1992-93 (separately and unbeknown to each other), Rabe Anton & John Beaman on one side of the Atlantic and Nick Beale, Gabriele Valentini and me on the other, had retraced the history of that Bf 109... Rabe and John published it on the (now disappeared) "Bulletin of the Luftwaffe Circle" , while we published the whole story on the Italian "JP4" aviation magazine one year later, realizing that it would take still a couple of years before being able to complete our "Air War Italy 1944-45" book... it is also in there, of course.

That's how it happened, not forgetting the great support of Dr. Marktscheffel, who allowed us to retrace the whole life of Renè Darbois.

Hope this helps.

All the best

Ferdinando D'Amico
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  #7  
Old 03-22-2002, 04:24 AM
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From TOCH!:

David E. Brown
Omission of other scholars' research
Mon Feb 18 21:24:08 2002
142.176.155.197

Ferdinando,

Please accept my apologies for neglecting to mention your fine work with Nick, Gabriele and Dr. Marktscheffel. I'm still here at work and was thus only drawing upon my memory.

Again, my apologies.

Cheers,

David
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  #8  
Old 03-22-2002, 04:25 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Ferdinando D'Amico
Are you joking? No need to apologize...
Mon Feb 18 21:53:06 2002
151.27.18.173

...it is instead funny to look at the timings of our replies...it seems I won by a mere three seconds! )

Seriously, it was pleasing to remember that at the time the researches of different people in different places, aimed at the same target, managed to unveil another small tessera of the great mosaic of history.

All the best

Ferdinando D'Amico
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  #9  
Old 03-22-2002, 04:26 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Lynn Ritger
You really are almost omniscent, aren't you!
Mon Feb 18 21:28:51 2002
209.97.5.125

Honestly, Ferdinando, it seems hardly a single 109 project passes without your valuable input...and that is a good thing! Thanks for the information!

Lynn

PS: Do you know anything of a 109F or G lying inverted on the seabed off Crete which is used as a popular spot for scubadiving excursions? A pic was posted to another forum (I will post it here shortly), and I'm curious to it's identity...
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2002, 04:27 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

David E. Brown
Original research
Mon Feb 18 21:19:21 2002
142.176.155.197

The original research that firmly established the identity of this aircraft was published by Dr. Jim Kitchens and John Beaman back in the early 1990s in the "Bulletin of the Luftwaffe Circle". It was an outstanding piece of detective work and included photos, drawings ofthe camouflage scheme, full references, etc.

Perhaps one of these two scholars can provide more details on the exact citation.

Cheers,

David
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  #11  
Old 03-22-2002, 04:28 AM
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From TOCH!:

Lynn Ritger
Aha, the hand of the master again!
Mon Feb 18 21:25:49 2002
209.97.5.125

I should have suspected...it IS a 109, after all!

Thanks, David.

Lynn
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2002, 12:09 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dave McDonald
109 histories
Sun Feb 24 08:15:14 2002
203.96.111.202

Hi all

Am looking for some information on the following airframe wrecks that are stored in North America.

Anything on wk.nr.
3535
10276
10212 ....... This aircraft I have is being lost into the sea off Cherbourg , so I doubt could be one of the aircraft held by Warbird Recovery , Broomfield .....

TIA

Dave

(I'm making the presumption here that these are in the U.S., although Dave only says North America.

Regards,
Richard)
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  #13  
Old 03-25-2002, 12:09 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Anonymous
Re: 109 histories
Sun Feb 24 15:18:57 2002
209.237.193.86

Bf 109E-1 3535 Höhn, Uffz. Erich 4. JG 51 wei§e 2 + badge 15-Oct-40 POW after Luftkampf with 3 Spitfires and 14 Hurricanes. Kanal Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.43; Mason, p.448 txt; BoB, T&N, p.685 txt Owls Castle Farm, Lamberhurst 100% F

Bf 109F-4 10212 1.(F) 33 02-Sep-42 Crashed at sea due to engine trouble. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11 near Cherbourg 100% F
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  #14  
Old 03-26-2002, 03:56 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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The www.paulnann.com Military Aviation Photo Gallery has photos of Luftwaffe aircraft in various museums around the world. The website address is:

http://www.paulnann.com/


The following is a list of aircraft by country, museum, and location. Numbers in parentheses are number of photos. All photos are in color.


USA

<U>Willow Grove NAS, Pennsylvania</U>

Me 262B-1a/U1, 110639 (1)

<U>Planes of Fame museum, Chino, California</U>

Mitsubishi J8M1 Shusui (Me 163), 403 (1)


England

<U>The Fighter Collection, G-AYSJ, Duxford, Cambridgeshire</U>

Bü 133C Jungmeister, LG+01 (1)

<U>Old Flying Machine Company, Duxford, Cambridgeshire</U>

Casa 1.131E (Bü 131) Jungmann, E3B-153/781-75 (2)
Casa 2.111B (He 111H-16), B2I-27 (1)

<U>Duxford, Cambridgeshire</U>

Bf-109G-10, 2 (1)

<U>RAF Museum, Hendon</U>

He 111H-23, NT+SL (1)
Bf 109E-3, 12 (1)
Bf 110G-4, D5+RL (1)

<U>Imperial War Museum</U>

Bf 109G-2/trop, 10639/6 (3)

<U>RAF Museum, Cosford RAF, Shropshire</U>

Me 262A-2a, 112373 (1)
Me 410A-1-U2, 420/430/3U+CC (1)


Scotland

<U>Museum of Flight, East Fortune, Lothian</U>

Me 163B-1a, 191659/15 (1)


Belgium

<U>Koninklijk Legermuseum, Brussels</U>

Bü 181B Bestmann, TP+CP (1)


Netherlands

<U>Militaire Luchtvaart Museum, Soesterberg</U>

Do 24T-3, X-24 (1)


Germany

<U>Deutsches Museum, Munich</U>

Ba 349 (1)
Casa 1.131E (Bü 131) Jungmann, E.3B-555 (1)
Fi 156C-3, A-96 (1)
Junkers A50ci Junior, D-2054 (1)
Junkers F.13fe, D-366 (1)
Messerschmitt M 17, D-779 (1)
Bf 109E-3, 2804 (1)
Me 163B-1a, 120370 (1)
Me 262A-1a, 500071/3 (4)

<U>Deutsches Museum Flugwerft, Schleissheim</U>

Bü 181 Bestmann, D-ECYV (2)
Casa 2.111B (He 111H-16) (1)
Do 24ATT, D-CATD (1)
Bf 109G-2 (Hispano HA.1109K.1L) (1)
Kaiser Kal (probably Grunau Baby), D-8362 (1)

<U>Auto und Technik Museum, Sinsheim</U>

Casa 2.111B (He 111H-16), 5J+GN (1)

<U>Junkers Museum, Dessau</U>

Ju 52/3mg4e, 6134/1Z-BY (1)

<U>Memmingen</U>

Bf 109G-2 (Hispano HA.1109K.1L) (1)

<U>Luftwaffe Museum, Gatow</U>

Me 163B-1a, 191904 (1)


Switzerland

<U>Verkehrshaus der Schweiz, Luzcern</U>

Bü 133C Jungmeister, U-060 (1)

<U>Museum der Schweizerischen Fliegertruppe, Dubendorf</U>

Bü 181B-1 Bestmann, A-251 (1)
Fi 156C-3, A-100 (1)
Bf 108B-2, A-209 (1)
Bf 109E-3, J-355 (1)


Poland

<U>Muzeum Lotnictwai Astronautyki, Krakow</U>

Bü 131B Jungmann, SP-AFO (1)
Me 209V1 (fuselage), D-INJR (1)


Russia

<U>Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War, Victory Park, Moscow</U>

Bf-109F (1)


Regards,
Richard
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  #15  
Old 04-01-2002, 01:50 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

alex Smart
captured Me109's
Fri Mar 8 00:55:50 2002
195.92.198.71

can anyone clear up the mistery of those captured 109's in 1939/1940?

"White 1"/W.Nr 1304 of 1/JG76 captured 22/11/1939.Pilot was Feldwebel Karl Hier.Became AE479.repaired with tail unit of W.Nr1980(I now beleive it was the tail unit of W.Nr 1480).
Went to the USA aboard the SS Drannesford in April 42 together with "Black 5" W.Nr 6147 pilot was Unteroffizier Andreas Walburger who forcelanded on 15/9/1940 in Sussex.

"Red 9"/W.Nr 3326 of 2/JG51 captured 28/9/1939.Pilot was Unteroffizier Georg Pavenzinger.

"Red 14"/W.Nr of 2/JG51 captured 22/11/1939.Pilot was Feldwebel Herfried Kloimuller.According to French recordsit was thius a/c that Capitaine Rozanoff was flying on 28/11/1939 when the tail was cut off by escortin Hawk 75A flown by Lt. Baptizets.

"Black 12"/W.Nr 4101 of 2/JG51 captured/crash landed brought down by F/Lt.Christie of 66 Squadron on 27/11/1940 became DG200.Pilot was Leutnant Wolfgang Teumer.

"Yellow 11"/ W.Nr 1251 of 3/JG76 captured in December 1939. Pilot was Leutnant Heinz Schultz. This a/c was displayed in Paris

"White 6"/ W.Nr after capture wore French markings a/c had blue sides.

On 5th of June 1940 Werner Molders of JG51 came down in French territory in his presentation 109E-3 W.Nr (Blue sides) What of this a/c? Was this "White 6"?

All replies welcome.
Alex
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2002, 01:51 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
USA Bf 109
Fri Mar 8 12:31:05 2002
65.82.100.93

IIRC (this was about years ago). A retired military officer who lived in Virginia had collected several forieign military types during his career. Sometime during the late 1950s, he decided he no longer wanted them, He took the engine out of the WWI SPAD, sold it, and burned the airframe. The Bf 109 was sold to a junk yard and scrapped. Perhaps this was the Bf 109 that came to the USA in 1940. This man had more a/c that suffered similar fates. I was heart-broken at the time and that was long before WWII warbirds had any real monetary value. You could buy a pretty nice airworthy P-51 for $5 or $6K. I passed up a Ryan PT-22 for $250 because I wasn't sure it was a good buy and just was careless when I missed the last P-43 in the world just to come and haul it away (complete but not airworthy). Duh!
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  #17  
Old 04-03-2002, 12:20 AM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Anders Näslund
Focke-Wulf" Fw.190, found in Novgorod
Thu Mar 14 14:10:58 2002
212.217.133.53

http://www.translate.ru/rus/url/tran...ru%2Ffw190.htm

There was a problem with this link, so Anders gave another:

http://klad.hobby.ru/milarch.htm

then 8th button from top

"haxuoki" or sometin like that.....
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  #18  
Old 04-03-2002, 12:20 AM
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From TOCH!:

Dave
Old News !
Fri Mar 15 21:54:16 2002
203.96.111.202

Fw190A-5 wk.nr.1227 of JG54 , recovered to the U.K. in the early nineties and under restoration to fly for the Seattle based 'Flying Heritage Collection' after being sold on to them by the Arnold family.

Dave
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  #19  
Old 04-03-2002, 12:21 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From further within thread on TOCH!:

Mark Sheppard
Fw190 A-5 W.Nr0151227 Weiß 'A' of 4./JG54
Tue Mar 19 10:39:11 2002
194.222.231.236

Hi all

Having recorded an seen the Fw190 recovered I can say without hesitation that the aircraft carried nearly all of its factory paint of RLM74/75/76. This had survived extremely well. The colours added by JG54 of Dark Green, Brown Voilet and sand/tan had also survived in places especially where protected (under the tailplane). The yellow underwings had survived as had bits on the fusealge and rudder.

Generally it was well prtected by a very dense silver birch forest (you could stand 20 feet away and not see the aircraft) and even though it was only 8 miles or so from the nearest village.

When found the only missing items were the MG17's. All the ammunitionwas with the aircraft as well a the pilots skullcap on the seat.

Damaged was a broken main wing spar and leading edge from the crash (flying into a small spling forest at that time).

So yes the paint did survive. Examples on the tndra are prone to more with wind and grit etc but not in a forest.

Hope this helps.

MS
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  #20  
Old 04-22-2002, 12:17 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Tom
Fw190A found "recently" in Russia - have a look
Sat Apr 6 21:32:31 2002
217.99.226.32

Just found some intriguing pics on the "St. Petersburg's Treasure Hunter" site ( http://www.klad.hobby.ru, section "Site News", Fw190A link).
Please have a look and let me know if there's any further info available on this a/c. It certainly is in a good shape...

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 22 April 2002).]
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