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  #1  
Old 09-13-2002, 01:05 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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Dénes Bernád
NARA microfilms through inter-library loan?
Fri Aug 9 20:16:21 2002
204.101.53.233

Does anyone have any experience in obtaining NARA microfilms, through inter-library loan? Is it possible at all?
I am asking this, as I would like to read a few microfilms of captured German documents and at $39.00/reel (plus Canadian Customs Tax), it's not a cheap game (I already ordered 5 such reels and paid in full for them, but I'd love to read some more, it's like addiction)...
Thanks.

Dénes
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  #2  
Old 09-13-2002, 01:06 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
NARA Microfilm Via Interlibrary Loan
Fri Aug 9 21:37:34 2002
198.26.120.13

Dénes,

In the narrow sense, National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) microfilms are no different from any other publication. This means that while the NARA will not loan film, you may be able to borrow what you want from other institutions and libraries. The problem is that very few libraries hold NARA microfilm, so it's going to be hard to borrow "what ain't there."

RA
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  #3  
Old 09-13-2002, 01:06 AM
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From TOCH!:

Helmut
Which library has some ?
Tue Aug 13 17:17:00 2002
149.225.40.253

I have the same problem like Denes.Do you know places where to get NARA film reels of documents ?
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:08 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Kari Lumppio
Luftflotte 1 Luftlagemeldungen & NA microfilm T-311/61-63
Tue Oct 1 13:46:27 2002
130.233.83.21

Hello all!

Is there anyone here who has worked with microfilms of Heeresgruppe Nord records (National Archives microfilm T-311)? Rolls T-311/ 60-63 contain attachments to the HGr NOrd war diary (Anlagen zu KTB) and include the daily Luftlagemeldungen by Luftflotte 1 for a period of time.

It seems not all of the material survived or was microfilmed? If someone knows about these Lfl 1 Luftlagemeldung from period May - mid November 1943 and for Summer 1944 I would be grateful of any leads to pursuit.

Finnish Miliatary Archives (Sota-arkisto) does have (only) the roll T-311/60 which I am using at the moment (the film covers period 13 Nov, 1943 - 10 Feb, 1944). This material is very helpful for my research on NSGr 11 and I would like to get hold of the rest of the available material. That is microfilm T-311/ rolls 61-63 and only copies of the Luftflotte 1 Luftlagemeldungen would be needed.

There are other (more limited) air activity mentions in the H.Gr. Nord material which are useful too, but would like to use the Luftlagemeldungen.

At the moment I have a shoestring budget so I would prefer material/research trading, also donations are welcomed < smile >. Contact here or directly if interested and willing to help.


With Best Regards,
Kari

PS. The Lfl 1 daily Luftlagemeldungen do also have some info of the Ostfliegerstaffel (and "Sicherungsstaffel") and mine sweeping missions with Ju 52 (for the period flying from Helsinki).
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:09 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
You can order the microfilms from NARA for 39 USD/each (n/t)
Tue Oct 1 21:12:52 2002
204.101.53.233
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:09 AM
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From TOCH!:

Kari Lumppio
I know, thanks. Not an option, ref: "shoestring budget"(n/t)
Tue Oct 1 21:28:45 2002
193.229.6.165
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  #7  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:10 AM
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From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Luftlagemeldungen
Tue Oct 1 21:50:03 2002
152.163.188.65

Kari -

Back in the 'eighties, I worked with all 300+ T-311 microfilm rolls covering the various Heeresgruppen, but I obtained them on interlibrary loan through my local library. You can do the same. Just go to the Sota-arkisto librarian or the chief reference librarian of your public library and tell them that you want to initiate an international interlibrary loan request for NARA WashDC, Record Group 242, Microcopy T-311, rolls 61, 62 and 63. Those rolls are held by the Center for Research Libraries in Chicago, San Jose State University (call no. 943A512ab), San Jose, California and by several other university libraries in the United States. If you use the WorldCat (Worldwide Catalog) or your browser to obtain the exact title, you shouldn't have any trouble getting them, but you may have to wait for 6 months before they arrive. It won't cost you anything and you will probably be able to have them for a month before they have to be returned.

HTH,

Larry
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:11 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Kari Lumppio
What I was told...
Tue Oct 1 22:52:29 2002
193.229.6.165

Servus!

Thanks for your informative and helpful response. I already did ask from the archive personnel about the possibility of interlibrary loan. First response was that they do not have any connections to other archives (This surprised me a lot actually) and I was given contact info for a boss there who deals with acquistions. They also said I could suggest that the archive buys the material and should be prepared waiting for several months (or for ever).

Up here interlibrary loans are charged, at least at the Helsinki University of Technology library and all local libraries (It used to be free when I was 15 years old or so - I used it several times as I lived in a "backwood" town). I do have used interlibarly loan system in my work, fortunately expenses paid by my employer. Unfortunately they don't need any Heeresgruppe Nord/ Luftflotte 1 info .

Like I wrote probably most of the Lfl 1 Luftlagemeldung info can be extracted from the rolls containing "ordinary" Meldungen, which there are several rolls. And this is what I am going to do if this plea doesn't succeed.

I woudn't like to discuss my financial matters here in detail, but until the better half finds work I am sort of brought to knees what becomes to "hobby money". Otherwise buying the microfilm rolls would have been an option. Though I certainly would like to put the money for rolls full of LW material.

For return favor I am willing to do an sensible amount of research at Finnish Military Archives (Sota-arkisto).


Regards,
Kari
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:12 AM
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From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
I tried to do the same (ILL), but...
Tue Oct 1 22:12:51 2002
204.101.53.233

...I ended up with a reply that I have to pay - sit down - 110 USD/roll, just to borrow them (not from NARA, but from another company)! This was because my local library is not part of I don't know which system.
Then I went to a local university library, which said that I can borrow microfilms for 20 CAD/roll, plus membership fee (again, not from NARA, but from another company).
BTW, as far as I know, presently NARA does NOT loan microfilms, only sells them (39 USD/roll for foreigners).

Dénes
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  #10  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:13 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
Interlibrary Loan
Wed Oct 2 00:06:09 2002
205.188.209.173

Kari and Dénes Bernád -

I am truly sorry to learn of the unfortunate results you have experienced trying to borrow these microfilms. All I can say is that perhaps different libraries have different policies depending on their budget and other variables. As originally conceived, all media (print, microfilm, sound, video) was supposed to be available through interlibrary loan to all libraries worldwide. I borrowed 6 or 7 items from the British Library in London and from a state library in Amsterdam a number of years ago. Around the early 'eighties, some libraries began to charge modest "rental fees" and now, 20 years later, it may be that the entire international interlibrary loan system has broken down because of this. If so, this is most unfortunate.

As for options concerning the NARA microfilms, they are available for rent as well as for purchase, but rental may only be offered in the U.S. and not overseas. However, Canada may be an exception. I don't know the rental cost, but it would be considerably less than buying them at $39 a roll. According to their website, the rental arrangements are (or can be) made directly with NARA, although I have never tried this myself.

Larry
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  #11  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:14 AM
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Von Rohden collection on microfilm
Wed Oct 2 09:15:26 2002
129.240.8.184

Hi, Larry.

I was just wondering if You knew where to locate descriptions for the Von Rohden collection om microfilm, so that I can try to get them on ILL (T971 ??).

Also, I have tried to search the NARA database, and came up with some additional clues to get other interesting documents...

Is the T1183 roll which is supposed to hold a sort of index worth getting? I was wondering if I should order it.

Also, as I saw when in Freiburg, the Luftwaffe moved their records/archival material out of Berlin in 1943. I guess this is well known, but still interesting as the new location would maybe indicate where remaining records would end up after the war (France/GB/US/USSR).

I was at BAMA Freiburg for a week, and browsed briefly through some material on microfilm there, but as You can imagine: Too little time and too many files!

Those of You that have known me via the net for some time know of my 'holy grail' search. Didn't find it this time, but we found some jewels that might have been used to decorate it....

Andreas
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:15 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
von Rohden collection
Wed Oct 2 15:09:33 2002
162.33.247.194

Dear Andreas,

Actually, parts of the von Rohden collection have been and perhaps still are in 3 different archives. See the topic "Library of Congress, NARA, & Air University von Rohden Collections" on the "Archives in the USA" forum on LWAG ( www.lwag.org ).

Have you tried searching the NARA online for more information on your specific desires? For instance, the "National Archives Collection of Foreign Records Seized (Record Group 242)" summary can be viewed at this site. Unfortunately, a search for T1183 came up with nothing listed here in RG 242.

In checking a guide that I have for the microfilm records, T1183 is actually in "RG 64 - Records of the National archives and Records Administration". It is described as:

T1183 Guide to Captured German Documents" (Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, Dec. 1952) and Supplement (National Archives, Washington, DC, 1959). 1 roll.

Try going to that RG 242 link I gave, then work from there to the RG 64 summary and see if there is any more description there.

Good luck.

Regards,
Richard
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:16 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
T-971, etc.
Wed Oct 2 15:32:49 2002
205.188.208.11

Richard covered everything pretty well so I only have a few things to add.

I believe T-971 roll 1 provides a detailed subject content description for all of the 73 rolls in this series. According to my notes, there were supposed to be 124 rolls in the so-called Von Rohden Collection, but NARA filmed selectively and only 73 rolls were produced. To the best of my knowledge NARA has not yet published (on microfiche) a guide to T-971.
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  #14  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:46 PM
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From TOCH!:

Richard T. Eger
T-311 & T-971
Thu Oct 3 00:16:55 2002
162.33.247.247

For the record, both T-311 and T-971 are within RG 242.

Regards,
Richard
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2002, 12:47 PM
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From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
T-971, etc. (Part 2)
Wed Oct 2 15:48:04 2002
205.188.208.11

The single roll T-1183 is, I believe, a filming of the card catalog cards prepared by the Air Force Historical Center at Maxwell AFB of all captured German (99% Luftwaffe, I would imagine) documents in their possession as of 1952. Although this might be interesting reading, it will not help you locate the documents since they were all reshuffled and renumbered after 1952 as they passed into the hands of NARA or were returned to Germany. Maxwell did not retain any of this documents after 1952. They were all shipped to a warehouse in Alexandria, Virginia.

The Luftwaffe archives were gradually moved from Potsdam to Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary) in the former Sudetenland beginning in late 1943 and the process was still underway in spring 1945. IIRCKarlsbad is the last place that they were known to be and it was there that most of them were reportedly destroyed on the orders of the Luftwaffe deputy archivist (acting on instructions from Göring, I would imagine).
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  #16  
Old 11-10-2002, 07:41 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dénes Bernád
Here is the reply I received from NARA re: microfilm loan
Fri Oct 4 03:23:44 2002
149.99.114.127

"I am sorry to say that this is not possible. We do not ILL [i.e., Inter-Library Loan] microfilm.

You may purchase the rolls you need for $39 per roll. Call 1-800-234-8861 or 301-837-2002 if the 800 number does not work for you."
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  #17  
Old 11-10-2002, 07:42 PM
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From TOCH!:

Larry deZeng
NARA
Fri Oct 4 12:40:33 2002
205.188.209.107

Dénes -

They never have participated in interlibrary loan. Only libraries and other institutions who have purchased NARA microfilms make them available through the interlibrary loan system (but not ALL library holders and not always for free!).

What would be interesting would be to find out what NARA's current policy is regarding the renting of their microfilms. They are supposed to do this, at least they say so in their literature published as recently as 1998 or so. Perhaps, based on things you have said here over the past several days, NARA got fed up with handling the rental procedure themselves and turned this over to a private firm. That's just a hypothesis, or course, because I don't know this to be a fact.

Larry
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  #18  
Old 12-09-2002, 01:15 AM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Kari Lumppio
NSG(r) aerial victory June 9th, 1944
Thu Oct 31 13:20:44 2002
130.233.83.21

Tere päevast!

Taken from Heeresgruppe Nord microfilms:

Tagesmeldung AOK 16 9.6.1944
"Luftlage... Nachtschlachtflugzeug erzielte Abschuss eines fdl. Bandversorgunsflugzeugs"

Loosely in English: Air situation ... Night harrasment plane shot down an enemy partisan supply plane.

(Source: Meldungen an OKH von AOK 16, von AOK 18 , A:Abt Narwa, 1.-15.6.1944, Band 122, National Archivces Microfilm Publication T-311/69)

Does anyone have LW claim documents for this date (Incident probably took place during the night 8/9th June, 1944) ?
I (for one) am interested to know the unit (probably NSG(r) 1 or 3 for German side), crew, plane type and identification for both sides. In a word everything related. But any additional piece is very much appreciated.

BTW This is the only time ever I have seen NSG(r) planes having aerial victory (claim).

Looking forward of all replies.

Regards,
Kari

PS I already have contacted mr. Möller.
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  #19  
Old 12-09-2002, 01:16 AM
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From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
NSG victory claims
Thu Oct 31 21:43:13 2002
212.159.17.152

I wrote about two such claims from NSG 9 in my book "Ghost Bombers":

1. A log book entry that this pilot's Bordunker had shot down a night fighter. (I found the crew's RAF sortie report and they'd lost the target but weren't hit)

2. A Mosquito shot down by an NSG 9 pilot. The evidence to corroborate this isn't 100% perfect (because the German pilot doesn't have an exact date or time) but I found a lost that's a pretty good fit.

There were also a couple of cases of Beaufigters damaged by return fire from NSG 9 aircraft (included one airman who suffered a bullet wound).
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  #20  
Old 12-09-2002, 01:17 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Kari Lumppio
Thanks for correction
Thu Oct 31 22:08:05 2002
193.229.6.165

Hi!

I do have your excellent book and also have faint memories of seeing sowhere in Internet about mention of P-61 being shot at/down by a NSG Ju 87 gunner.

I was thinking only about Eastern Front and too quick in typing.

Regards,
Kari
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